Marvel Movie Madness! Part 17: The Punisher (2004)

This has got to be my guilty pleasure of the Marvel movies. I honestly don't see what's so bad about it. I mean, sure it's a little too violent (sadist violent), but I somehow liked the casting choices, & the action in here was great. But I hated how The Punisher & the other chick didn't hook up. I didn't read the comics, so, I shouldn't care. And I was surprised to see Eduardo Yanez make a cameo in here.

But why does this movie have a lower tomatometer score than than "Daredevil"?

Jun 15 - 02:10 PM

Pat Guder

I agree completely. I actually really like this movie. What I don't understand is the argument that it is too violent. Is it any more violent than most comics? Is it more violent than, say, a movie like Braveheart, or a sci-fi or fantasy movie where countless numbers of creatures are killed? I don't think so.

I also really like the casting. Thomas Jane is a favorite of mine, with roles in Boogie Nights and The Mist, and I really like Ben Foster.

I think the Punisher may be one of the hardest characters to bring to the big screen due to the fact that he intentionally has almost no ties to the outside world, and is alienated from the rest of the characters and the audience. He is an anti-hero, which naturally makes him hard to root for, leading to a certain amount of disconnect from the audience. But I think that makes the Punisher all the more compelling because we know he has been traumatized, and is reacting in a way many of us would probably want to in order to get revenge.

Jun 15 - 02:26 PM

Well said

Jun 15 - 04:15 PM

Christopher Shine

Very much agreed. I thought some of the scenes shocked me, but in a way to invest myself in the story and the characters. I can think of about 50 other movies far more violent that no one bats an eye at. This was an excellent movie, and Thomas Jane was perfect for it. Perfect enough to even be in the video game!

Jun 17 - 06:01 PM

Great question re: "Daredevil." Granted, it's been 25 years since I watched "Howard the Duck," but at this moment in time, "Daredevil" is probably my least favorite Marvel movie.

Jun 15 - 02:57 PM

First Last

As much as hated Daredevil, at least they got the costume right. Just once I'd like to see a full-on Punisher costume. War Zone almost had it but they still back off the skull.

Jun 15 - 04:00 PM

Daredevil is no worse than Ghost Rider (worst marvel movie ever). I have yet to see Howard the Duck (& I don't think I want to based on what I've read)

Jun 15 - 04:16 PM

Tumelo Drametu

This is my guilty pleasure. Although i do believe that Frank Castle is too much of an unlikeable character to get his own movie, i think that this movie got pretty close.

Jun 15 - 02:20 PM

Zach Nix

Well, I enjoy moments of this movie. I can't say it's a great movie. I'd give it a 2.5/4. It's incredibly dark, and so lacking on action, that it can become a bit of a bore. But, there are about 10 minutes of absolute greatness in this movie. I dunno. I'll defend moments of it, but as a whole, no.

Jun 15 - 02:23 PM

Quick question to the RT staff: Which version did you see? There is the theatrical and the extended cut. Knowing which one you saw will help a lot of reaers who have seen both (same goes for Daredevil).

The version I rewatched last night is the extended cut, so I will apoligize in advance if some thing don't make sense in my post. I saw the theatrical once, so I don't know what was added for the extended version.

I watched it again last night - and since I knew you guys were going to crap all over it (as you foreshadowed in your Dolph column) - I wanted to be extra skeptical to see where you'd find fault. The truth is, I don't see what was so wrong with it. The story was good, Jane did a great job with his character both before and after the massacre, his neighbors reminded hi of the good in the world still. But you aren't dissing THAT stuff, so let's address your concerns:

Was the mass murder of his family uncomfortable? Yes, but that was the point. It was incredibly gruesome and tragic. It was supposed to do two things: 1)Make you root for Castle to get justice, 2)Make it ok for a woman to be murdered - since Travolta's wife was shown as a soul-less monster by being the one to want the whole family killed. Whether that worked for you as viewers is personal preference, but let's not pretend like they went overboard just to go overboard. That's a gross simplification - like when people described Brokeback Mountain as "the gay cowboy movie" (I would have described it as "painfully slow", but I digress...). I mean, they killed his WHOLE family - did you expect him to slap on a WWJD bracelet and start over with his life?

In this essence (to me), this movie worked where the remake of The Last House on the Left failed. THIS movie followed up the brutality with equal retribution. After the horribly uncomfortable rape scene in Last House, the payback was incredibly disappointing. They went from being very detailed of the rape to the parents seeming to accidentally kill the guilty party (I seriously felt there should have been an "oops" line after each one was killed). That movie never earned the right to show the initial offense, but The Punisher did.

Part of your point on the graphic violence is that it was too brutal. My reply is: "Well...yea." It's The Punisher. He's Marvel's version of Batman - if Batman didn't know any martial arts, or have any problem with killing individuals. This movie didn't have him randomly stabbing his way to the top - he was smart about who he went after and how. And the brutal fights (like with Diesel. OOPS! I mean The Russian) were raw and had a great impact. Were you guys expecting a John Woo film - where everyone is born with zero gravity and fight around doves?

The Punisher isn't a hero. Let's make that painfully clear. He's an ANTI-HERO. He's the Stone Cold Steve Austin of the comic book world. He's an emotionless bastard, and he's proud of it. The readers are proud of it too.

The truth is - this is probabaly the closest we will come to having a Punisher movie that could appeal at all to any type of mainstream audience. I agree that a TV series would probably be the best live action medium, but I'm skeptical it would ever get a large enough viewership to have a decent run due to its niche fanbase.

Jun 15 - 02:43 PM

scifi mark

I think the origin of the character when his entire family is massacred is very well done. So pretty much the first half i really liked but i just felt the movie was a letdown after that. It was ok and i did like Jane in the role. This is the best punisher movie they have made. The last one they made was just bad all around in my opinion

Jun 15 - 02:47 PM

I can't speak for the other guys, but it isn't really that I thought it was too violent, per se; it's that I think you should FEEL violence like this -- the way you do in a couple of the movies I mentioned ("The Outlaw Josey Wales" and "A History of Violence"). In those films, there's no joy in death, and the camera lingers over it to remind you of violence's awful, inescapable consequences. In contrast, I thought Hensleigh -- and the pier scene is a good example -- was kind of giddy about the movie's violence. I mean, it's unpleasant, but you don't feel it on a gut level, and that's totally underscored by the awful Russian sequence.

Jun 15 - 02:54 PM

Oh, and Noah: I watched whichever cut iTunes is offering as a rental. Not sure which one that is.

Jun 15 - 02:56 PM

That MAY be the theatrical cut. The only reason I think that is even the bluray is theatrical only. The extended is 140 minutes long. Does that help?

In the extended, the family don't get killed until 30 minutes into the movie - so the extended gives you time to feel that familial bond, which the theatrical may not. Once again, I don't remember the theatrical very well to know how they handled it.

Jun 15 - 03:09 PM

I think this was only about two hours, so I'm guessing it was the theatrical cut -- and yeah, you don't really feel that familial bond at all. He comes home after the bust, has a scene with his wife, a scene with his son, and then everyone's in Puerto Rico.

Jun 15 - 03:14 PM

kyle T

Actually, I completely felt it on a gut level. The first time I saw the movie, I lost ten pounds.

Jun 15 - 09:39 PM

joe adams

I don't understand how people can despise this film so much and praise "Kick-Ass" at the same time. People worship Chloe Moretz's character who is a young girl that's been raised to believe that killing people is ok and feels no empathy in killing people for almost no reason. I understand that her plot isn't the main point of "Kick-Ass," but it was her character that was praised as one of the best parts of the movie.

Jun 15 - 02:52 PM

King Crunk

It boils down to that old saying about there being a classy way to do something, and a trashy way to do something. Kick-Ass had heart, this movie does not.

Jun 15 - 03:40 PM

joe adams

I agree that there was 'some' heart in "Kick-Ass" although I didn't particularly care for it, but I just don't see where exception (Kick-Ass) and exclusion (The Punisher) rules come from. To me it was the exact same type of violence with the exact same motives for such violence.

Jun 15 - 04:25 PM

Mike Sch

what an inane double standard

Jun 15 - 06:00 PM

Daniel Klein

I gotta agree with the guys crying 'Double Standard;' if you lament violence in a movie and your complaint is that it is too depraved/heartless/visceral, you kind of forfeit the right to go 'macro' and try to put it in a bigger perspective to defend it in some other context. The acts are (or _should_ be) utterly repellant, whether they're done by a trained soldier or adorable girl. I would submit that they are more repulsive in 'Punisher' because at least half the killings are personal, with a target that has been given a name and a personality. There actually seem to be consequences, physical, emotional and practical, to the acts of Frank killing his chief antagonists.
This is different from 'Kick-Ass' where they don't bother to give virtually any of Hit Girl's targets an identity. They are all fodder or stereotypes, and they even play the scenes up for laughs by playing up-beat, child-like music over the top. You are *supposed* to feel like the scene is surreal or comical, whereas in 'Punisher' you're just witnessing the acts, themselves (with the obvious nods to cinematography), and left to feel how you want afterwards. I actually appreciated the ambiguity- the movie wasn't telling me how to feel about any of this, just offering me a glimpse of it.

Personally, I kind of enjoyed this movie over-all ; I went in expecting ultra-violence and revenge, and I got it. Quite frankly this wasn't much more violent than 'The Crow.' I just think this character was a bit less charasmatic than Eric Draven, no fault of Thomas Jane.

Finally, the problem I did have with this movie is that the murder of Castle's wife and child seems almost like a scene-for-scene re-shoot of the murder of Mad Max' wife and child in that first movie. Looked like a COMPLETE rip.

Jun 16 - 07:23 AM

First Last

The Punisher: Skull F*&$ed
* out of four

Considering how unbelievably low my expectations were by the time I saw it, it's virtually impossible that I could be disappointed in this movie. But I was. In fact, I hated it.

When the movie started, I was pleasantly surprised. I liked the opening
credits and I liked the Thomas Jane as an undercover cop in a bust-gone-bad. Considering the ridiculous amount of bitching I did about this change in the character, I was starting to feel a little stupid, even wondering how I would word my apology thread. But this didn't last long and the whole movie nosedives quickly. I realized that making the Punisher a cop wasn't the problem, making him a complete moron, well, that was an interesting move, to say the least. A bold decision, I felt.

Case in point: Any cunning warrior knows that one of your greatest assets in the element of surprise. Frank Castle is rightly presumed dead after being shot in the chest at close range and blown up. I�??m sure in Howard Saint's wildest imagination he wouldn't figure Frank would be resurrected by a voodoo guy. (Yes, a voodoo guy. And you thought the original origin was contrived?!) I mean, who could have seen that coming? So the world thinks Frank Castle is dead, until he shows up at a PRESS CONFERENCE!! So the world then says, 'Huh, Frank Castle isn't dead. How 'bout that. He must have been vacationing near a voodoo guy.' There is no strategic value whatsoever in announcing to the world, even making a special announcement to Saint just in case he wasn't watching TV, that he's alive. It's like saying; 'Okay bad guy, if your defenses are down, get them up because that'll make my job a lot harder.'

So Howard Saint kills the Punisher's Wife, Son, Mother, Father, Aunts, Uncles, Nieces and Nephews. So what does the Punisher to in retaliation? He decides to make Saint suspicious that his wife may be cheating on him!

Aw, Hell, yeah, boy!!!! Make that muthf***a question his marriage! That's what you get for messing with The Punisher!

I mean, WHAT THE @#$#?! This is what you came up with?! Seriously, this is his plan: He finds out where the wife will be (Because as much as Saint loves his wife, he lets her travel alone. Pay no mind to the resurrected madman who was nice enough to specifically warn you about his revenge against the Saint family) and when she leaves her car, he steals it and parks it in front of a hotel.

Then he reaches into a big black back and pulls out a FIRE HYDRANT! He puts it on the sidewalk in front of the car so she'll get a ticket for being parked in front of a hydrant. All this in the hopes that Saint will find the parking ticket and think his wife is at a hotel with Saints' best friend.

This begs many a question:

Is it easier to obtain a phony fire hydrant than to make a phony parking ticket?

Are there no real fire hydrants you could park in front of?

Couldn't you just, you know, shoot the wife? Wouldn't that settle the score? Because that's apparently his goal in the first place, he takes credit for it at the end: "I made you kill your wife." he says. Not really, dude. You made him suspect his wife was cheating and he's such a lunatic that he killed her.

"I made you kill your best friend." Well again, it helped that Saint is an easily manipulated psycho anyway. But if you wanted these people dead, why didn't you do it? Look at your shirt! You're the Punisher! Isn't that your job? He was more like The Manipulator. He should have worn a shirt with a fire hydrant on it.

And let's talk about Saints "best friend".

In order for the Punisher to make it seem like there's an affair going on, he gets Saints' best friend to show up at the same hotel that his wife was parked in front of. How? By threatening to expose his big, dark, ugly secret, that he is (get ready to gasp)... a gay man!

Can you imagine? A gay man in Florida? In this day and age? Travolta calls this guy his best friend, even his brother, and he doesn't know he's gay? These are middle-aged men, how long have they been best friends? 10-20 years? You mean this never came up in conversation? Even the wife knows! Worse, I guess he thinks Travolta will kill him if he finds out.

Would you be best friends with a guy like that?

At this point the movie decides to go for intentional laughs. The Punisher moves into a building with three, I can only describe them as wacky, neighbors.

I wanted to like the neighbors. There is actually a brilliant black comedy, buried somewhere in the Punisher. But the neighbors were introduced so clumsily and for the most part, they all seem so forced. For instance, I've lived in apartment buildings; I've never gotten to know my neighbors. These three hang out together all the time. They even eat at the same diner together. They seem to see themselves as some kind of cosmic soul mates brought together by this building.

Jun 15 - 02:56 PM

The part of the fire hydrant was so he could take the car to the hotel and the spot by the theater would still be open when he re-parked it. The wife would probably get suspicious if her car was parked somewhere other than where she left it.

Jun 15 - 03:02 PM

All brilliantly put. There are SO MANY flaws in this movie, you could fill pages with them. None of us mentioned, for instance, the singing hitman who serenades Frank while staring soulfully into his eyes. And my least favorite part: the involvement of Roy Scheider, an actor whose work I love, and who deserved far better than to be Mooseported with a final wide-release role in a movie this awful.

Jun 15 - 03:04 PM

Patrick Wiley

I too really thing this movie gets an undeserved bad rep. I'm borderline stunned that the big complaint these critics are toting around is that it's "too violent" and the violence is unjustified. Frankly I think it makes them uncomfortable because deep down they reflect on the hours of violence they've enjoyed under childish facades that it's "justified", that it's being carried out by "the good guy" against "the bad guys". I'm curious what exactly these three thought about Sin City. Side note, Sin City is amazing.

Maybe the problem with this movie is people walk into it thinking a comic book movie will have clear cut black and white moral values. They think they'll leave the theater with warm childhood fuzzies satisfied that justice has been served and the bad guy is safely behind bars. Unfortunately that is simply not how The Punisher operates.

I don't see what's so unsympathetic about him. Does he kill and torture people, yes. Do they deserve it, probably. Does it make sense that Castle believes they deserve it? Hell yes.

And I'll give three to one odds every one of those cynical critics would feel exactly the same way in his position. Its easy to sit on your moral high horse in your cushy theater seat, but here's a little reality for you, most of the time when people hurt those closest to you, it makes you want to hurt them back.

Jun 15 - 04:24 PM

First Last

CONT'D

Because, despite the fact he barely knows him, Spacker Dave allows himself to be tortured by bad guys (with the fat neighbor looking on the entire time but too fat and cowardly to do anything) so as not to give up the Punisher. When the Punisher rightly asks why, it's "because you're one of us." One of us what? One of the tenants in this building?

Then there's the big, stupid finale.

It's like since the movie was a series of little stupid things, it needed a really big stupid thing at the end. So here it is: The Punisher is in a giant parking lot and after he finally gets his revenge on Saint. He reveals that his wife and best friend were never cheating on him. Saint has to live with the grief and guilt of what he's done. For about two minutes. And then Punisher just kills him. Lot of trouble to go to for two minutes, Frank. But there's more.
The Punisher detonates a series of bombs in the parking lot. From an aerial view we see the exploded car fires form the shape of the Punisher skull.

I'll give you a moment to wrap your brain around that.

Really, think about it. It's so large scale, how could Frank even tell from the ground how this was going to make a skull shape? He would have needed an overhead map of the area or something. This really would have taken a lot of planning and preparation. And why would he bother because WHO IS EVEN SEEING THE %&*$ING SKULL SHAPE?!! The people on the MOON?! Is there a helicopter tour? Seriously, why would you BOTHER?!! For WHO?!! WHY??!! AAAARRRGGHH!!!!

Bottom line. After Frank is brought back to life by the friendly neighborhood voodoo man he�??s told to �??Go with God.�?? To which Big Pun replies; �??I think God is gonna sit this one out.�?? I advise you all to do the same.

Jun 15 - 02:57 PM

Some of the voice over dialogue seemed to make me want to roll my eyes. But then I thought that it was realistic for those throught to appear in text boxes in the comics for exposition. Just food for thought.

Jun 15 - 03:05 PM

rizzy h

HA HA HA HA . . . . . .people on the moon? . .. . . nicely done, sir

Jun 15 - 04:00 PM

Alexson Philipiah

Never seen it, never will.

Jun 15 - 02:59 PM

Alexson Philipiah

By the way that green Lantern tomato meter is very disheartening...a 20%...wow....with an average rating for 4.5/10.....apparantly the movie is all visuals and real sense of fun or character development...

Jun 15 - 03:00 PM

What worries me the most is that (with both movie and marketing budget coming to $300 million) this is in the top 6 most expensive movies made. After opening weekend, either the WB execs will be high-fiving...or throwing themselves out of office windows.

Jun 15 - 03:07 PM

Manuel Granados

From the trailers the only thing not CGIed is a house or a car here and there. It looks like a CGI crapfest. I had no expectations for the movie, but the trailer made me feel I was watching some pixar knockoff.
I will be surprised if it reaches 50% at most

Jun 15 - 03:25 PM

Well, at least they weren't trying any of that 'realistic' bullshit they did with other movies

Jun 15 - 04:17 PM

Manuel Granados

The only "realistic" superhero movie they have tried and admitted to is Batman, and well he has no superpowers so you know, it is easy to make it realistic.
Green Lantern sounds like one of those movies where you know who is the bad guy because the other character said he was the bad guy.

Jun 15 - 08:56 PM

yeah, but Batman shouldn't be adapted realistically. They should have kept it fictional (a guy who grew up with a horrible father & wears make-up rather than fall into a pit of toxic waste? What a joke.)

Jun 16 - 04:51 PM

Manuel Granados

I wanna believe you are joking on that one.

Jun 17 - 12:21 AM