AMEN: INTERVIEW WITH COSTA-GAVRAS

Greek filmmaker Costa-Gavras is no stranger to crafting daring movies about government repression and struggles against injustice, like State Of Siege and Missing. In his latest dramatic confrontation with history, Amen, Costa-Gavras tackles the subject of Catholic Church complicity in the Holocaust head on. The principled political filmmaker met with me to talk about issues that apply just as much today, like the courage of refusing to remain silent in the face of officially sanctioned crimes against humanity. Amen is based on Rolf Hochhuth's play Der Stellvertreter, or The Deputy.

There have been so many films about the Holocaust. Why did you feel there needed to be one more, and how do you see Amen as shedding some new and different light or insight into the subject?

COSTA-GAVRAS: I think as European directors and writers, we will visit that period again and again. Because we learn each year more new things about that period. And we continue to try to understand how human beings are capable of creating an industry whose purpose is to destroy other people. This is something that boggles my mind, and so I keep trying to understand it.


What interested you about WW II and the Holocaust, that inspired you to make Amen?

C-G: I saw these historical events as metaphors, for our indifference and our silences today. On the other hand, for me these courageous characters represent the perfect resistance against an awful system. And they try to inform as many people as they can, to stop this tragedy.

A very persistent theme underlying your film is communism. Talk about the often ignored historical accusation as seen in Amen and in historical events, that Hitler and his sway over Europe was as much a creation of capitalist powers in their obsession with destroying the Soviet Union and communism. So much so, that capitalist countries ignored the Holocaust, in pursuit of this aim.

C-G: Right, there is no doubt. In the 1930s, everybody was hoping that Hitler, who had stopped the communists in Germany, would destroy the Soviet Union. That was their big hope. And then when the War started, Churchill and DeGaulle decided that the biggest enemy wasn't the communists, but the nazis.
And they ended up convincing even Roosevelt to participate in the destruction of nazism. Of course after the War, they started again to think about destroying communism. But fortunately they didn't make another world war.

You're a unique filmmaker, in that your movies are often about the social protester in history, his courage, ideals, struggles and persistence, as well as his suffering, loneliness and ostracism. Why does that historical figure fascinate you?

C-G: That's right. Because people who are resisting in a difficult situation are generally very few people. And then other people follow, because they follow their example. And those people interest me tremendously, because those are the ones who change society. Politically sometimes, but then artistically also.
I think they are the salt of the earth. These are the highest of human beings, compared to all other life on the earth.

So would you say that's the kind of hero that appeals to you for your movies, as opposed to more conventional heroes?

C-G: Oh yes. There are too many fake heroes in movies. And they don't correspond to any human reality.

Is there any event in Amen that is fictional?

C-G: There's just one part that is fictional. The priest Riccardo (Mathieu Kassovitz) is a kind of composite of several priests who appealed to the Pope about the extermination of the Jews. But everything else in my movie is based on real events. For example, what is said in the Vatican against believing this priest or caring about what he has to say, is absolutely accurate.

There have been some accusations that what you expose about the Catholic Church isn't true. What is your response to those accusations?

C-G: I would like to hear those accusation one by one! I have answers to all of them. But there are some very conservative Christians who don't want to accept that Pope Pius XII didn't say a word for four years during the War, and didn't help the Jews.
He refused to even say the words "Jews" or "concentration camps." Those who defend him say he didn't speak in order not to make things worse. But what is worse than six million people?
Anyway, you always have accusations. And it's apparently enough, because they go around, and then people start believing them.

What kind of backlash has there been against you by the Church, and how have you reacted in turn?

C-G: There were some declarations at the beginning, but there were also a lot of priests who took good positions. The Jesuits and also individual priests came to me and told me, this is a good movie. They said, we're very moved. We don't agree with everything, but the movie is very strong. But some in the Church condemned the opening of the movie.

What about your very intriguing ending to Amen, where the Catholic Church is seen aiding nazi leaders to escape to other countries after the War, in particular the United States?

C-G: Yes, many high ranking leaders were helped by the priests to leave Europe so they wouldn't be tried. And it wasn't just one or two who were helped. So I finish my film with that other idea. Because it's part of the truth.
And it wasn't just one case, it was hundreds. Something like ten thousand nazis were able to come to the United States. And some of them have been in very high positions here. They were well accepted in industry and business.

What are your thoughts on why the Catholic Church would want to help these nazis?

C-G: They accepted the nazis from the beginning, for anti-communist reasons. But it was also because of anti-Semitism within the Church, which didn't start during the War. It existed years and years earlier. And that anti-Semitism nourished Hitler's philosophy.

And do you think the US accepted these nazi emigres to show their appreciation for Hitler's attempt to destroy communism?

C-G: I would say some people in the United States, without a doubt. And there is no doubt that if Hitler had destroyed the Soviet Union, he would have been seen as a big hero by the US and its allies.

It's been the tendency of people in this country to dismiss the horrors and lack of social conscience and humanity depicted in your film, as symptomatic of the past, or an aberrant German society. Yet ironically, many today seem unaware of their own similar, convenient denial of contemporary atrocities, such as ongoing US belligerance and war crimes around the world now. How do you intend Amen to cut through this individual dissociation from history and society today, in particular the collective consciousness needed for the anti-globalization movement?

C-G: You know, we live in a society today with a lot of media to talk to us. But I think we ignore a lot of tragedies going on. And few speak up, or try to stop it. One tragedy is the blockade that is killing so many children in Iraq. They say it's something like half a million children, and for lack of medicines and food.
This country is destroying innocent people and children there while claiming to destroy Saddam. So all these tragedies are going on in silence. And we don't have the courage to speak. We're discouraged from speaking, because we're accused of being pro-Saddam. But I'm not pro-Saddam. I'm pro-human beings.

What do you see as your mission, as a filmmaker?

C-G: No, I don't see any mission. Missions belong to the priests and the politicians. No, I'm a storyteller.

But you do choose political themes.

C-G: Yes, because I think art has to deal with our lives, and with our society. And I'm coming from the Greek tradition. If you look at the Greek tragedies, you will see that all of them speak about society. And there is also a theory that belives Greek democracy was born from those Greek tragedies. And from the theater.

Then how do you explain what little interest filmmakers and writers have in political themes today?

C-G: Unfortunately cinema from Hollywood has become a product that has to make money. It's become like a football game, or going to the circus. You go for a few hours, you may laugh, and then you forget about the whole thing. I don't believe that the artist's role is that one.

Looking back on your very long and distinguished career, what have been the rewards?

C-G: Oh you know, it's when someone stops you on the street and says, I like your movie. It's an Oscar every time!

Prairie Miller
The WBAI Arts Magazine, Tuesdays 2-3 PM, NY Time
WBAI Radio NY, 99.5 FM, and on Web Radio Simulcast everywhere at:
http://www.2600.com/offthehook/hot2.ram