Zero Dark Thirty

At least somebody finally spoke the truth on this thread.

Apr 11 - 02:21 PM

John Tyler

Amen, Bruce. Amen.

Apr 18 - 02:22 PM

Cole Jaeger

That's saying that every movie with violence encourages it. And point out exactly where the film takes a stance?

Mar 29 - 05:34 PM

Stephanie Sapienza

I think those of you that think ZDT was promoting torture or was 'indifferent to violence' are way off in left field. I don't love Michael Moore all the time, but he did hit the nail on the head in his review: 'In the final third of 'Zero Dark Thirty,' the agents switch from torture to detective work ? and guess what happens? We find bin Laden! Eight years of torture ? no bin Laden. Two years of detective work ? boom! Bin Laden!' He goes on to say (and I concur) that no one could watch the torture or violence in this movie and leave thinking it was justified. It was horrifying, which was the filmmaker's point. I think the theme of the film was that there was error and bad judgment on both sides, and that this was a terrible and dark time in our past. Indifferent would mean not addressing it at all.

Mar 25 - 08:46 AM

Jonathan Neiderbach

Not saying the torture was effective or justified, but - in the movie, don't know about real life - isn't Maya following leads developed from detainees when she hunts the courier?

Mar 25 - 11:10 PM

Montez Bush

I asked my family (we watched it together; 4 people not including me), and I swear I asked it in the most unbiased way possible (actually to be honest I may have said it in a way to make them think it was torture propaganda) and they all said they came away with think torture is horrible and unnecessary. Take that as you will. Don't think any sensible person could watch those scenes and support torture.

Apr 12 - 01:19 AM

David Price

I'm in the military and I know a little about the community portrayed in this film. The Hurt Locker was unbelievably bad and Zero Dark Thirty isn't far behind. I'm not going to say this person or that was wearing the wrong kit or holding a weapon incorrectly because I don't care about that stuff. What I want to know is how an analyst with no field experience and the interpersonal skills of a honey badger is the sole individual who, over several years, tracks down the one lead that eventually gets us the tall guy. It's a slap in the face to the hundreds if not thousands of people who gave years of their lives to track that asshole down. I'm not looking for a documentary but I expect it to be at least based in reality. I hope Bigelow's next movie is about unicorns or dragons, that way it will be more realistic and therefore more watchable.

Mar 22 - 05:04 PM

Jonathan Neiderbach

A recent news story quotes retired CIA-Director Hayden as saying it was a "band of sisters" who tracked OBL (or UBL) down...Maya is a composite but very accurate.

Mar 25 - 11:09 PM

Marc Hochman

I didn't see the film as making Maya the sole individual responsible. I saw her as the common thread weaving through the different chapters of the movie while a bunch of other people did their work.

Also, the very first bin Laden unit in the '90s was comprised of so many women that it was dismissively referred to as "the Harem" while their warnings about bin Laden weren't being taken very seriously either. http://www.cnn.com/2012/12/13/opinion/bergen-feminist-epic/

Mar 26 - 06:33 AM

Lee Loo

Maya is based on the real-life female CIA agent who had tracked Bin Laden, identified as "Jen" in "No Easy Day".

Mar 28 - 08:51 AM

Sue Dillmore Miller

Let's see. There was one word that was over used in Zero Dark 30. Every person,every sentence. If it was any other word everyone would complain.

Mar 16 - 08:16 PM

Marc Hochman

I know, right? "Tradecraft."

Mar 17 - 04:25 PM

alejandro sacajawea

miss bigelow why didnt you get amy poehler in this? chris pratt was funny but would have been funnier with more characters from the rest of the show. you didnt even show the transition for andy dwyer as he gets rejected from the police academy and then joins the navy seals.. also i didnt think it was that funny.

Mar 6 - 10:44 PM

This film was WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY more important than Argo, if not better. This film actually said, HOLD YOU'RE HORSES AMERICA, bin Laden's an asshole but is a man. One person going after this guy for a decade is throwing their life away, she who fights too long with dragons becomes a dragon, and if you gaze into the abyss for too long the abyss will gaze into you. That's pretty much what I got from this film. Argo was very good, BUT HOW THE FUCK IS IT OSCAR MATERIAL?? IT WAS NOTHING BUT A WELL MADE FUN RIDE BASED ON THE IRANIAN HOSTAGE CRISIS XD

Feb 21 - 12:50 PM

alejandro sacajawea

argo was better maybe because it was factual. lol this is just a fictional tale

Mar 6 - 10:49 PM

Argo was completely unrealistic in the sense of physics and how the Iranians were portrayed XD

Mar 18 - 04:12 PM

Mick Patrick

Argo was largely fictional. The heroic stuff was done by a Canadian (Ken Taylor) and not by the Affleck character.

Mar 20 - 01:18 PM

alejandro sacajawea

Argo is a declassified story now, this shit isnt. its still classified so its all speculation none of this shit is true. why do you think congress gave the creators of this shit tons of flak, its based on a story that hasnt been made public and wont be for at least another 10 years.

Mar 24 - 08:44 PM

Andrew Milito

I don't think this is fictional...

Mar 25 - 02:42 PM

Lesly Clarke

How is it that Ms. Bigelownot did not get an Oscar nod for this movie? I have seen all of the Oscar contenders and I thought Argo should be the winner for best pic until I saw this one. To the thread talking about the swearing...are you kidding me...have you seen Django Unchained? There is in no way gratuitous use of the word "fuck" In Zero Dark Thirty. This is an adult movie, grow up or stick to the PG movies. How she filmed some of those crazy crowd scenes in the streets, the bombings that even though you know historically is going to happen still gives you a start and the clever use of the dirty night goggles. Very, very good movie, very good writing acting and of course direction. Conspiracy theory...Ms. Bigelow beat out her ex once before do you think Mr. Spielberg is suffering sour grapes? Do you think he has any "pull" in Hollywood? just sayin'.

Feb 12 - 10:28 PM

Sam Stilman

hahaha - ZERO DARK DIRTY - can't believe this movie is coming out already. www.zerodarkdirty.com

Feb 7 - 06:01 PM

Matthew Preston

I'm indifferent to violence. I'm glad this movie didn't bore me with moral sanctimoniousness. Most people, slave minds as they are, crave direction in all things. "Think for me, think for me!" they shout. "Please, interpret the world for me, for my mind is too weak to forge a path of its own!"

Sad, really.

Feb 1 - 03:09 PM

Lee Loo

"I'm indifferent to violence"
What's that suppose to mean? details, please?

Feb 2 - 11:04 AM

Ian Tierney

I think he meant ?The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing!?

Feb 7 - 08:42 AM

The film is about human error on both sides of the war, and leaving the audience to decide what they think about that kind of character study. I'm sure we are all adults on this page.

Mar 18 - 04:14 PM

Human error of Al Qaeda and their affiliates bombing our operatives and military during the hunt, and us torturing the shit out of detainees with unknown intel. There is wrongness on both sides. I don't believe this is a Gandhi movie people! That's even one of my favorite movies, but this movie is pretty much what philosopher, Friederich Nietzche lived for XD

Mar 18 - 04:16 PM

Shawn Hall

People who are indifferent to violence are only that way until violence happens to them or to someone they love. Watch how fast indifference goes out the window after that happens, God forbid...

May 2 - 07:50 AM

Michael McDougall

I thought the scenes depicting American soldiers fucking goats a trifle understated. Everyone knows goats are rare in that part of the world and in the interests of historical accuracy they should , and would, have been fucking Camels. The dialogue where the marine says to the airforce major, "one hump or two?", was truly moving. Seldom has such empathy between armed forces been depicted so realistically on-screen. The closing scene where the GI places his penis inside the dismembered skull of Osama said everything that needed to be said. Closure at last.

Feb 1 - 04:25 AM

Richard Terrell

Well, I'd say the fucking script of this fucking movie is fucking full of the word "fuck" and variations thereof, and that is no fucking lie. Literally a fucking minute does not go by without some fucking reference to some "fucking" thing. So does the fucking script writer have any fucking thing to say other than "fuck?"

Jan 21 - 08:49 PM

Lee Loo

America F..k Yeah!!!!!

Jan 31 - 09:13 AM

Have you ever seen an R rated movie before? There are plenty of movies with more F words than Zero Dark Thirty.

Feb 5 - 01:00 PM

Eric Shankle

I don't have a problem with the word but with the way it was used. It felt awkward every time someone said it. My brother noticed it too and I didn't even say anything to him about it. For a film like Goodfellas or Superbad using it a lot makes more sense; in Zero Dark Thirty it felt forced.

Feb 5 - 08:18 PM

Jack Ciri

I completely agree. I notice it every time a movie forces the word and this time it was definitely forced. Some movies warrant the use of the word but this time I feel they were just using it to get the most out of their "R" rating.

Feb 11 - 08:20 AM

Jason McCann

They are not saying they don't take a stance in their lives, just in the film. You're supposed to make up your own mind.

Jan 19 - 04:46 PM

craig vanderah

Too bad the left can't get past thier political narrative and admitt this is a great movie.

Jan 19 - 04:08 PM

This comment has been removed.

Better to be a sheep than a troll.

Jan 20 - 02:49 PM

Grant Welcome

how much hand wringing would be required to make this movie acceptable?

Jan 19 - 11:37 AM

Adam Smith

I thought it was kind of boring.

Jan 15 - 08:44 PM

Sophie Habib

Very powerful movie.Good luck for the Oscar!

Jan 13 - 06:54 PM

I love how people in Hollywood can make movies with images of graphic violence, strong sexuality, etc. and no one seems to care. But someone makes a movie with a scene of torture and it's suddenly the most offensive and immoral thing in the world. Grow up.

Jan 13 - 11:39 AM

Zach Idiculla

Lol, exactly

Jan 13 - 11:41 AM

Aaron Maher

No one is objecting to Zero Dark Thirty's portrayal of torture because they find a depiction of torture on film to be offensive in and of itself, genius. They're objecting to it because a) it falsely portrays torture as having played a significant role in finding Osama bin Laden and b) it seems to offer a tacit approval of its use.

Jan 13 - 12:32 PM

Ian Tierney

I dont think portraying it is the same as endorsing it. Infact they have clearly stated they are against it. Also the question is not whether torture works or not. (I'm sure water boarding someone is more effective than asking him nicely) BUT whether a state should be doing it.

Feb 7 - 08:46 AM

Torture either did or did not lead to finding bin Laden, either way the War on Terror rages on, plenty of extremists and terrorists with their own agenda to go with it, probably much different from UBL's way. This film is great because it gets that part right, little Maya at the end realizing bin Laden is dead, but there's still plenty of terrorists out there both foreign and domestic. So her enactment of killing UBL in my view was an act of revenge for the long years she's spent hunting him down and losing friends along the way. Yup, I'd definitely consider this a war movie XD

Mar 18 - 04:21 PM

This comment has been removed.

Awww, wanna cry?

Jan 13 - 08:06 PM

T W

ALL CAPS IS ILLEGAL AND WRONG

Jan 14 - 02:21 PM

Anthony Felix

Mick, I don't see how this movie is promoting torture. Is it possible, while the movie is being made, that torture was one of the procedure that led to finding Osama? I don't think the movie is sending a message that torture is a way to get answers. Torture is just how they found Osama. I know torture is wrong, but I do not think the movie is trying to endorse torture.

Jan 14 - 07:41 PM

"Torture" is not how they found Bin Laden. Correlation =/= causation.

Jan 15 - 01:22 AM

Ricky Rodriguez

Agreed. Also, the torture portrayed in the film isn't exactly endorsed. Maya's initial reaction to it is on par with what other peoples reaction would be. The difference is, it was her job and she was good at it. I do agree with others too; torture is wrong and disgusting and a blight on our government. Those moments and the end when they took out Bin Laden were pretty uncomfortable for me to watch. It wasn't so much HIS death that made me cringe as it was the pressense of all those children when it happened. This film pushed some buttons and it made me think. This is why I like it so much.

Jan 14 - 12:19 PM

Are you seriously suggesting "strong sexuality" is worse than *torture*??

Jan 15 - 01:20 AM

Umm...are you fucking kidding me? Let me put this in terms you may be able to understand: They were terrorist, they liked to kill innocent people, I don't care if they were tortured for information.

Jan 15 - 01:31 PM

James Phoenix

I love how all of Mick's posts are getting deleted. It warms my heart.

Jan 20 - 02:54 PM

James Phoenix

Gladly, Mick. But I don't have any dildos, so you're gonna have to get your own.

Jan 20 - 03:13 PM

Did you actually read the question I posed? Your knee-jerk response contains no indication as such. 50 years ago, people said the same thing about "communists," rarely allowing facts to get in the way, often ignoring their complete lack of knowledge when it came to either the subjects of political ideology in general, or the specifics of individuals they were talking about. Only a decade or two before that, they would've said the same thing about Japanese-Americans. You appear to be following in this grand tradition, and ironically, come off as evil as some of the terrorists you claim to despise (the actual terrorists, as opposed to people whom the term is applied to as a mere pejorative), and probably a whole lot more selfish.

Jan 21 - 12:35 AM

Here's another question that I don't expect you to answer, because it's rhetorical: What good is defeating the monster of terrorism if we allow ourselves to resort to its tactics and become just like it (or sometimes even worse) in the process?

Jan 21 - 12:47 AM

Dylan Jones

You're right, Terrence. People shouldn't try to bring terrorists to justice. We should all just suck our thumbs and wait for the next attack, right? That would be the moral thing to do.

Feb 4 - 02:05 PM

Yeah, Terrence, you dumbfuck. I did read your post. And frankly, I had to spend about five minutes recovering from a laughing fit before I could respond because what you said was so stupid. And now, since you still don't get the picture, I'll try again. (And I won't use big words because I know it may be difficult for you). What's more uncomfortable to watch? The ass rape scene from Pulp Fiction or Girl With the Dragon Tattoo, or watching a scene in ZDT where some terrorists gets water poured on his face because he was involved in 9/11? The answer should be pretty damn simple. But, Pulp Fiction and GWDT get praised by people while ZDT gets slammed by people. As for your second meaningless question, I think Dylan Jones pretty much summed it up quite nicely above me.

Feb 4 - 02:18 PM

Alex, I won't comment on Pulp Fiction because it's such a long time since I watched it. However, the difference between GWDT and ZDT is this: the rapist in GWDT is punished for an abhorrent act, whereas in ZDT Bigelow distorts the facts to present torture as providing the vital information that led to the death of Bin Laden when, in fact, it didn't. Three US senators who have reviewed CIA records on the matter (John McCain among them) describe the film as ''grossly inaccurate and misleading'', simply rejecting as ''incorrect'' any suggestion that torture produced vital intelligence leading to bin Laden. The FBI have made it clear that torture isn't useful in providing information. Bigelow worked closely with the CIA, who obviously want to defend their use of torture. She didn't source other material that contradict her presentation of it. What's especially troubling is that she directs the film in a journalistic fashion which naturally encourages the viewer to take the film as fact.

Personally, although I found the film engrossing, I think it should be thoroughly pilloried because of the grossly unethical behaviour of misrepresenting facts to portray torture as useful.

Feb 7 - 02:32 PM

Matt Smith

Jean----- please join at the big boy table. A good chunk of your argument is based on the fact that water boarding didn't lead to intelligence that led to OBL. It shocks me how readily people question the CIA and military on this whole thing but somehow when a piece of information like that comes out, it's taken at face value. Do you think, maybe, just maybe, those 3 senators (I don't care hat McCain is one of them) would be less than 100% either a) truthful or b) knowledge in this area? The torture issue is a political mess so anyone involved in washington does not have completely clean hands either.

Secondly, no where in the movie did they say torture led to an important lead. In fact, I thought it was portrayed as the first ~20-30 minutes was treading in the sand at which point Jason Clark left.

Either way, everyone likes to flip the argument on its head. Hindsight is 20/20. If you want to say no to water boarding because it's cruel and you wouldn't want to use it even if it took down the next future terrorist who would otherwise go free, fine. Absolutely debatable. It's unfair to claim however, "We got OBL without water boarding anyway so it's crap."

Feb 8 - 02:00 AM

Ryan Metzger

Also regarding what the Senators said, we need to remember this whole story is still so fresh and all of the information is Classified and will be for many years to come. So it's tricky to try to say which parts are true and aren't at this time. Whereas Argo was declassified and is more readily accessible for research as to the facts of what occurred. What I've noticed from Bigelow/Boal's two films (Hurt Locker and ZDT) is that they take topics which can be and, as we've seen have been, co-opted by different political viewpoints, and tell a coherent narrative of drama that speaks to the audience in different ways challenging the viewers and raising potentially new questions to audiences that they may not have reflected upon previously. That's part of the beauty of cinema and Bigelow/Boal do it effectively.

Mar 21 - 01:57 PM

Matt, thank you for your patronizing invitation. I'll do my best:

Matt, the 'few senators' were chairs of the Senate Intelligence Committee and Senate Armed Services Committee who had thoroughly reviewed the intelligence information. The CIA, itself, has admitted no information leading to OBL was gained from torture. Incumbent Secretary of Defence, Leon Panetta, confirmed that torture wasn't used in the capture of OBL. Panetta was Director of the CIA 2009-2011.

In the film, Bigelow clearly provides the link between torture and gaining vital information. The name she initially follows up on was gained from 2 detainees who were tortured. The first one revealed names by being tricked, but the trick only worked because he'd been tortured. The second detainee revealed information about the name because he said he'd been tortured and didn't want to be tortured again. Now, while that name led to dead ends over the next few years, the link between torture and the courier that led to OBL was clear.
The information that was discovered years later with the family name was only presented to the heroine because of the name that had been garnered from those 2 tortured detainees, and the 2 linked names were in the same family. Ergo, torture provided vital information that led to the death of OBL in the movie.

Furthermore, Bigelow portrayed events inaccurately for dramatic effect. In reality, the name of the courier was found through good intelligence and detective work before the detainees (in the movie the 2 detainees were an amalgam of several real detainees) were tortured.

Thing is, ZDT is about a real recent event that's hugely important to the US and the world. At the start of the movie, Bigelow comments that the film is based on actual events. Now, while one expects some artistic licence to cram what took years into a few hours, given the political enormity of the subject matter one expects the main facts to be faithful, especially when it's directed in a realistic, 'journalistic' (Bigelow's own description) way that invites the viewer to believe what they're seeing. What's being criticized is that the way torture is presented isn't factual and so it's quite legitimate to criticize Bigelow for what she's done. In reality, torture didn't provide the information needed to track down OBL. The use of torture was a huge controversy at the time. For Bigelow to use the techniques she did to misrepresent the facts of such an immensely important historical event to portray something as controversial as torture as legitimate, but distasteful, is grossly unethical to say the least.

You ask, 'what if they had?' Well, the question is irrelevant, not only because they didn't, but because we know torture is unreliable and there are more effective non-violent interrogation methods. The FBI and CIA will tell you. Read these 2 articles: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/8833108/Torture-is-not-wrong-it-just-doesnt-work-says-former-interrogator.html and http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2011/05/04/tortured_logic

It was the Bush Administration that cleared the path legally for the CIA to use torture.

The most productive interrogator in Nazi Germany, Hans Scharff, didn't use torture. His techniques influenced US interrogating after the war. Torture is about revenge, which doesn't solve anything and only causes further hatred and violence. While that comes out a bit in the movie, it doesn't make up for the blatant lie that Bigelow has told.

Feb 8 - 04:14 PM

Matt, in addition, one has to wonder why Bigelow did what she did. The focus on torture in the film is obvious. Why didn't she use the immense power she has as director of the first major studio film about one of the most important historical events in recent world history to reveal to everyone that torture didn't, in fact, lead to vital information in the apprehension of OBL?

Feb 8 - 04:43 PM

Oh, and Matt, if torture had led to vital information in the death of OBL, you would think that the CIA would've shouted it from the rooftops. But, they not only didn't, but have denied that it did.

After 'The Hurt Locker', one would've expected a talented director like Bigelow to have made ZDT focusing on inviting Americans to reflect upon why, in their understandable grief after 9/11, they allowed their elected representatives and President, no less, to act out their collective revenge fantasies by ordering the use of known discredited interrogation techniques that inflict horrific cruelty upon other human beings. A civilized nation understands the difference between fantasy and behaviour. America failed that understanding during those dark years. A mature, civilized nation should be able to withstand the pain of a guilt. In fact, it's necessary to feel it in order to move forward in acknowledging that torture isn't the best or ethical way to fight terrorism, and to set an example of civilized behaviour in dealing with terrorism appropriately and effectively. Bigelow had her opportunity to show this, and failed. In fact, she only had to follow the accurate details of the hunt for and death of OBL, as the story itself is engrossing. But she didn't. Her development as a director is greatly disappointing.

It was a pleasure responding to your invitation.

Feb 8 - 05:50 PM

In Your Dreams

You're overreacting because you got your feelings hurt. It's a typical response. The men tortured at the beginning and midway through the movie did not provide the evidence that led directly to Bin Laden. It was part of the process of fighting Al Qaeda. Of course it would play a part in zeroing on Bin Laden-- is your heart breaking yet? For a movie that, in your words, took so many "artistic liberties", why come to peaces over such a tiny element? You're embarrassing yourself. You were so blinded by the rage of having your bubble burst by Bigelow you completely missed the entire last part where it came down to a matter of exhaustingly extensive detective work; Maya triangulated Bin Laden's hiding spot using her knowledge of local geography and process of elimination. I doubt intelligent people are going to walk away from this movie with "torture = bin laden" as their dominating impression. But hey, it's not my call to judge if you want to live your life as a whiner.

Mar 20 - 10:53 PM

hollis mills

.......its a good movie....

Jan 13 - 09:51 AM

Yes, it is a good movie and Mick Travis is just an idiot.

Jan 13 - 11:40 AM

Anthony Felix

How good was the movie? Don't spoil it just tell me how good it is. I was thinking of seeing this movie on my day off from school next Monday :)

Jan 13 - 02:17 PM

Greg Dinskisk

It was a fantastic movie

Jan 13 - 04:04 PM

I'll tell you what, Terrence. The day I try to crash a plane into the Empire State Building,you have my permission to torture me. (That is, if I'm still alive). In the meantime, you can watch the Girl With the Dragon Tattoo ass rape scene since you love movies with gross sex.

Feb 4 - 02:07 PM

Dylan Jones

Terrence, words cannot describe how stupid you are.

Feb 4 - 02:13 PM

This comment has been removed.