[Spram]

You know, villians in games usually have a motiviation to be evil. Which have the best worst.

Some that I like:

1. Zeromus (FF4), he was part of a superior race that lived in earth and wanted to take earth back. So he had to kill the humans first.

2. Jenova (FF7), laugh all you want FF haters, but Jenova is the best Final Fantasy Villian. What did she want? She wanted to hurt the Earth so all the spirits would go there and then devour "them". She was just an evil alien who wanted to eat the planet, too bad the translation and dialogue made it seem like Sephiroth was the bad guy when Sephiroth wasn't even alive.

3. Bowser: Peach seems to be the only woman in the entire Mushroom kingdom, who wouldn't want to kidnap her?

4. The Queen in ICO: She needed the souls of the horned boys (and the "body" of a girl) to live forever. She was just one crazy spirit woman stuck in a castle.

Actually, thinking about it, these all suck (not as much as Necro at least). Come up with better ones.

[WyLD iNk]

Some of my faves:

Baal [Diablo II LoD]: He assaults Mt. Arreat, killing tons of barbarians in the process, then tells one of the barbarian Elders that he will spare them for the key to the Worldstone, which he promptly then takes contol of and threatens existence with, which forces angelic bad-*** Tyrael to destroy the whole thing (which opens another can of worms...why does Tyrael destroy the one thing that kept the demonic world from overtaking our world, corrupted or not?)

The Taiidan [Homeworld]: These galactic as</>sholes drop the hammer on an entire race, relocate what's left to a desert planet with minimal technology, then threaten them with extinction if they develop hyperdrive technology. And when the Kushan people forget (time will do that) and build a ship to take them back home, the Taiidan raze the entire planet, leaving but only roughly 600,000 Kushan left in the universe and hunt those few mercilessly.

The Panther King [Conker's Bad Fur Day]: He wants to use Conker as a table leg so his milk will not fall off anymore. How low can you go?

Kefka [Final Fantasy 6]: I know I'm opening a can of whoopas</>s on myself posting this, but I think he was the only real nasty villian in the entire Final Fantasy series. At least he was the only one I ever grew to actually hate. I mean, c'mon...he kills Espers (coldbloodedly I might add) so he can accumulate enough power to destroy the world, which he accomplishes!!

Kain [Legacy of Kain series]:An arrogant nobleman is killed and desires revenge so much, he actually sells his soul for the opportunity to murder that small band of ruffians that was contracted to kill him. Sweetened by the deal that I, as Kain, can also use whatever sociopathic motives I have of my own.

More to come as I think of 'em.

[Indiana Jones]

Originally Posted by WyLD iNk

Kain [Legacy of Kain series]:An arrogant nobleman is killed and desires revenge so much, he actually sells his soul for the opportunity to murder that small band of ruffians that was contracted to kill him. Sweetened by the deal that I, as Kain, can also use whatever sociopathic motives I have of my own.

I don't think Kain is all that evil. Maybe in his younger years as a vampire, he was a savage blood thristy killer, but he was also a tool, so I'm not surprised he ruthlessly killed all the people who used him.
And from what we've seen in the recent games, he's become wiser with age, and less and less evil. I mean, he saved the friggin' world! He can't be all that bad.

[WyLD iNk]

Originally Posted by Indiana Jones

I don't think Kain is all that evil. Maybe in his younger years as a vampire, he was a savage blood thristy killer, but he was also a tool, so I'm not surprised he ruthlessly killed all the people who used him.
And from what we've seen in the recent games, he's become wiser with age, and less and less evil. I mean, he saved the friggin' world! He can't be all that bad.

I haven't had the opportunity to play Soul Reaver 2 or Defiance yet, but I can safely say that he was a definite anti-hero at least in the 2 previous games.

Soul Reaver starts off with the revelation that Kain did in fact choose to sacrifice the well being of Nosgoth in order to seat himself as ruler of it. And in the centuries that passed from Raziel's banishment to his return, things only went downhill. Turning Sarafan priests into his lieutenants 'n all...Kain is one bad mutha. He is evil by a lot of definitions. But maybe he is becoming wiser. I'll know once I play SR2 and Defiance.

[Nora A.]

None of the Final Fantasy villains had good motivations, except Jecht, if you count him as the villain.

Ghaleon had good motivation on Sega CD - he was madly in love with Dyne and got mad when he lost all of his power. In Silver Star Story, the movtivation was decent - he was an extreme egotist who wanted to remake the world how he saw fit.

[Don Corleone]

I thought it was pretty interesting that the Covenent in Halo are on some sort of religious crusade against the humans.

[Indiana Jones]

Originally Posted by WyLD iNk

Soul Reaver starts off with the revelation that Kain did in fact choose to sacrifice the well being of Nosgoth in order to seat himself as ruler of it. And in the centuries that passed from Raziel's banishment to his return, things only went downhill. Turning Sarafan priests into his lieutenants 'n all...Kain is one bad mutha. He is evil by a lot of definitions. But maybe he is becoming wiser. I'll know once I play SR2 and Defiance.

SR2 gives reason to why he really did most of that stuff. But I won't spoil it for ya.

[Spram]

Originally Posted by Nora A.

None of the Final Fantasy villains had good motivations, except Jecht, if you count him as the villain.

Ghaleon had good motivation on Sega CD - he was madly in love with Dyne and got mad when he lost all of his power. In Silver Star Story, the movtivation was decent - he was an extreme egotist who wanted to remake the world how he saw fit.

Isn't that similar/the same as Zeromus.

You just blindingly hate the Final Fantasies.

[Nora A.]

Originally Posted by Spram

Isn't that similar/the same as Zeromus.

You just blindingly hate the Final Fantasies.

Zeromus had gay love for Fusoya?

FF4 is my second favorite RPG, by the way.

[MrPhoenix]

Originally Posted by Nora A.

None of the Final Fantasy villains had good motivations, except Jecht, if you count him as the villain.

You're right actually, Kuja is the only other one that comes anywhere near to a reason for doing what he does. Usually it's not a problem for me if a villain doesn't have a clear reason... but Kefka is the exception, I found Kefka completely mundane and unintimidating, really a pathetic excuse for a villain if you ask me. Pure simple nastiness is not something to build a 40+ hour game upon. Even FF8's villain, the weakest part of that game, seemed better because she was a creepy sorceress rather than a stupid clown. Some people like Kefka but I thought he was stupid.

[SavoryTruffle]

You're right actually, Kuja is the only other one that comes anywhere near to a reason for doing what he does. Usually it's not a problem for me if a villain doesn't have a clear reason... but Kefka is the exception, I found Kefka completely mundane and unintimidating, really a pathetic excuse for a villain if you ask me. Pure simple nastiness is not something to build a 40+ hour game upon. Even FF8's villain, the weakest part of that game, seemed better because she was a creepy sorceress rather than a stupid clown. Some people like Kefka but I thought he was stupid.

I pretty much agree here.

To me, Delita and Jecht had the best motivations - But neither were actually classified as "villians" to most people. Kuja came the closest, with real reasons other than "kill em all." Still, the overall stable of FF villians is pretty weak. I did like Sephy a lot, but I must admit that it's just simply his look and overall "coolness" that got me. Ultimacia was left to online rumors and theories, which I evenually decided not to believe. Kefka and the entire FFT villian set were all stupid.

[Lack]

When it comes to villain motivations, the best I can think of it Jon Irenicus, from Baldur's Gate II. Here's a guy who lost his elvenhood, his very soul, and feels so hollow and empty on the inside that it's slowly eating away inside. So what does he do? Go get a new soul of course. But he doesn't want just any old soul anymore. He decides that he wants nothing less than the soul of a God.

His plan was crazy, but it made sense in the context of the D&D setting. And he was so ruthless and cold as he carried out his plans, you had to respect him, even if you hated him.

His motivations set him apart from great (in my opinion) villains like Kefka (some people may hate his lack of reason, i thought it was pulled off great) or Ghaleon (who, in the end, doesn't seem so villainous).

[[__fight__]]

yes, just a need to "take over/destroy the world/humanity" is a pretty weak motivation

[Superdog]

Maybe not the people who talked about games I haven't played but, ah hell, here's my pick for best villain motivation:

*spoilers for Deus Ex: Invisible War*


JC Denton.

"I have no enemies, only topographies of ignorance."
After merging with the Helios AI program, meant to help efficiently run the world, JC has a plan to create world-wide peace and harmony in a perfectly equal utopian society. He doesn't seek to do this with war or violence, like the previously mentioned "take over the world villains might", but through total equality. After him and the Helios AI assume control over all communications and electronics in the world, JC will release a nano-programn into the air. As JC explains, no man can be truly happy if his fellow is better than him, richer than him or more handsome than him. So this nano-program will make everyone in the world completely equal, making everyone the same.
Theoritically, it's the perfect solution, but no one wants a world where everyone is the same, even with free will.

Idealism gone totally wrong perhaps, but JC ends up more fascist than Hitler, Stalin and Mussolini put together. Karl Marx would sure be happy though.

[WyLD iNk]

Yeah..you guys are right. Pure genocidal psychopathy is never a good motivation. Never mind the fact, like I've stated before, that Kefka does what so many other bad guys want to do, but are cut off from doing in their games. He DID destroy the world, and there was nothing the heroes could do at the time. They failed. Face it. You may not be intimidated. You may think you could take him one-on-one (most of the youth in this world could take real life genocidal dictators one-on-one, but I won't go there). You may not like his appearance. But the point is, he did what he set out to do.

Admittedly, I have not beaten FF9 (still on the 2nd disc) but I haven't seen too much in the way of an intimidating villian there either. No, "kill em all" is an acceptable motivation for villiany. It worked for Hitler, it works for Al Qaeda, and so on. So it isn't the most original motivator ever. It doesn't need to be. I'm not saying Kefka is the best villian ever. He just is the best FF villian merely because he accomplished his goal.

And liking a character because they look cool is just plain the weakest excuse for admiration. Plus I never liked Tetsuo Nomura's character designs.

[DeadScreenSky]

Originally Posted by WyLD iNk

No, "kill em all" is an acceptable motivation for villiany. It worked for Hitler, it works for Al Qaeda, and so on. So it isn't the most original motivator ever.

Not to defend them, but 'kill em all' certainly isn't a real motivation for either of your examples. Lazy script-writing like that, either in games or propoganda, is bad because no reasonable person can believe in it upon any deep inspection. 'Real villains' have very real, at least partially understandable motivations - videogame villains should to! Being able to see their humanity, and to connect to it personally, is what gives the story pathos and weight. If all you want is a mindless monster, than you are a better off just having that.

Don't want to spoil much, but I am rather fond of the 'villain' of Rez. Their motivations are a little mysterious at first, but it eventually becomes pretty clear. Select the black box below with your cursor to view the spoiler text

Having what is essentially the princess who need rescuing also be your opponent creates some very interesting emotional layers to the story. Even if it is basically stolen from Neuromancer. It just really complicates things nicely!

Silent Hill 1 is a little similar with the villain who is causing all of this horror you face. Select the black box below with your cursor to view the spoiler text

Just the idea that all of these horrible places and things are being created by the little girl you are trying to rescue, all to prevent you from doing just that because she can't be found, is really interesting. It really makes you think, and does such a great job of adding more ambiguity.

Select the black box below with your cursor to view the spoiler text

You empathize with the various character's motivations, and that they inherently contradict each other adds so much weight to the story. That it also explains why much of the challenges you face are so arbitrary and videogamey is brilliant. And it fits the way they set up the game as if it was a television serial like Twin Peaks. It really allows the game to work on a whole bunch of different levels, which I think is obviously the mark of a good story. Certainly it could maybe be a little more accessible to more people, but that is a small complaint.

Planescape: Torment has a number of excellent, believable villains. Ravel alone is a deeper, more interesting adversary than ten other random games feature. Such amazing writing. And the game features plenty of others, along with lots of people who are both friend and enemy. A very gray universe in that game, it really can force you to think about your own life.

[MrBlack]

I usually find any villain who isn't primarily motivated by world domination/genocide/major financial gain very refreshing. Some of my favs: (SPOILERS, needless to say)

The Master [Fallout] His basic scheme involves capturing as many humans as possible and turning them into super-mutants by means of a virus developed by the former US government. Of course, none of his subjects have a say in the matter, and all kinds of misery and atrocities result from his plan. None of this deters The Master, who sincerely believes his mutants are the next stage in human development, and are the only hope for ensuring humanity's survival.

Hector LeMans [Grim Fandango] Of course, everything in this game is just bursting with originality. It follows that its villain’s master plan would be just as unique.

Grim Fandango takes place in the Land of the Dead, the underworld of Mexican mythology. All souls end up here, and have to travel across the Land in order to reach the Ninth Underworld, the Land of Eternal Rest. The journey is quite hard, and most souls would want to purchase transport to ease their journey. The more virtuous a person's life, the more "credit" they would arrive with in the afterlife, and the better their choice of transport would be. The greatest reward in the hereafter is ticket on the Number Nine train, taking the soul straight to their eternal rest in the fastest time possible.

Hector, apparently, was so evil in life, it seems he has been barred from the Ninth Underworld for eternity. He devises a daring scheme to corrupt the Department of Death (travel agency to the recently dead), and rob the agency's most deserving clients of their just rewards, their tickets on the Number Nine. All in order to buy himself an undeserved place of rest in the afterlife.

Balthazar [Baldur's Gate 2:Throne of Bhaal] A fairly minor villain, but I still found him interesting. Himself an offspring of the dead god of murder, Bhaal, he arranges the large scale demise of every other Bhaalspawn in the realms. Once they are all dead, he plans to commit ritual suicide. All in order to prevent the resurrection of Bhaal through his many offspring. He was certainly more interesting than the rather generic main villain of the BG2 expansion.

[Rowland]

Originally Posted by WyLD iNk

It worked for Hitler, it works for Al Qaeda, and so on.

Both of those examples have a lot more motivation than "kill em all" in their "villany". You have no idea what you're talking about.

[Rowland]

How about Silent Hill 2, where Select the black box below with your cursor to view the spoiler text

the villans, being the Pyramid Heads and whatever higher power oversees them (presumably Samael), are actually judges, torturing you for your sins by taunting you with your past and your weaknesses in the purgatory that is Silent Hill, eventually deciding whether or not to condemn you to death and presumably hell, or to allow you to live if you prove yourself worthy. Now THAT is cool.

[SavoryTruffle]

No, "kill em all" is an acceptable motivation for villiany. It worked for Hitler, it works for Al Qaeda, and so on.

Actually, both Hitler and the Al Qaeda had/have actual reasoning for doing what they did/do. No matter how ****ed up they may be, they're at least "something" to go by.

In fact, I've always thought an RPG based on Hitler would work rather well...

But the point is, he did what he set out to do.

Many RPG villians have done what they set out to do. Only, they did so in a manner backed by actual substance.

In the FF series alone, both Delita and Kuja did what they set out to do...and did it better than Kefka.

[WyLD iNk]

*sigh* Did I call it or what? A can of whoop-as</>s opened on myself.

First of all, I wasn't trying to say that Hitler or Al Qaeda used a genocidal agenda as their sole motivations. It is a part of it. Perhaps I shouldn't have used real world villians as examples. Some points are so difficult to convey in print.

Pathos and weight are good, and should be included in storytelling. But I will not trick myself into believing that they are the required components of a game. As MrBlack said, "I usually find any villain who isn't primarily motivated by world domination/genocide/major financial gain very refreshing." This is good. But not all the time. Humans (in general...there are exceptions) seem to have a very difficult time comprehending anything they cannot personally relate to. That is why humanizing is used in almost every facet of storytelling. But you would do yourself a disservice to limit yourself to games that you considered to be intellectually elevated. It is not required. Play something that forces you into some existential quandry and get your kicks that way, but make sure you spend some time with games that you can turn your brain off and enjoy some simple fun. Not everything has to stretch the ol' head muscle.

Had anyone read more of my post, rather than just focus on Kefka because of some obvious distaste for him, you would have seen that he was not my sole choice of villian. There were a few others, and as all this Kefka-hatin' was going on, I was looking through games I have played and thinking of more choices. The ones I listed were at the top of my mind at the moment I wrote that. Not pretentious in the least, he was a villian I can like for his straight arrow evilness. He didn't need to have psychological issues (and what's with all this darkness and forboding in today's RPG's? What's wrong with whimsy? Angst can only carry something so far.) It's like listing your favorite games of all time and having 4 of the most thought provoking games of all time listed along with Quake 3. Because once in a while I don't want to comprehend the nature of the universe and I just want to launch a rocket down something's throat.

Second, I agree that the Final Fantasy series is lacking in real villiany. Kefka, like I said, was a simple villian. I haven't beaten FF9 yet (not sure I will...I'm so burned out on RPG's. I blame FF7) and I'm not sure I ever will. So I can't compare Kuja to him, and therefore I cannot argue how he is or is not better than Kefka. But given that the name of this thread is villians best/worst motivations and given that I beat FF6 back when it was released, he has stood out in my mind as a villian I really liked. Hence, he is listed. You don't have to like it. Hell knows how much I can't stand Sephiroth's groupies (Sephiroth: Most popular FF villian that did nothing.), but I let them have him because I firmly believe in the phrase "To each, his own." So why can't I have Kefka?

[Nora A.]

So why can't I have Kefka?

You spent all of your post defending Kefka, and they were simply countering your defense.

You praised Kefka accomplishing his goal and the heroes suffering an initial loss - many RPG villains have done that to one degree or another. The first RPG that I remember that happening in was the villain that I mentioned - Lunar/Ghaleon, in which Ghaleon took over the world and blew up Vane - only with actual motivation behind it as opposed to "I am crazy." The game also provided the opportunity for him to join your party and the "My Secret Garden" portion of the Grindery to give him more depth of character (especially if you add on Lunar 2, which has quite a bit of focus on his redemption).

Kefka's problem is that he's, quite simply, henchman material and not villain material. He started off as a KERAZY henchman, and worked well because of that - henchman can be one dimensional without providing many storytelling problems. It is because they aren't the focus. Once he became the focus, it hurt the storytelling because he wasn't developed at all - and it didn't help that nothing in the World of Ruin developed him either. Gestahl was the villain, Kefka traitored on him, and then you didn't see him anymore untill the very end of the game. That's just bad development.

[WyLD iNk]

Interesting.

I was not defending Kefka, I was defending my choice of him as a villian I liked.

I have not beaten Lunar, which I realize I am missing out, but I have no motivation anymore...it sits barely started on Sega CD and untouched on PS, so I cannot possibly compare him. Having not played this game disqualifies that character from being something I can use as a contrast.

I never stated that Kefka was the only RPG villian, or any genre villian for that matter, that accomplished what he set out to do. I said he did it in the Final Fantasy series of what I had played. I have not beaten FF8, barely touched 9, never touched 10, or 10-2 and a great host of other modern RPG's that have been released since FF7. I have no bearing to rate the villiany behind those games, and cannot use them as contrasts. This does not make my opinion any less valid than anyone else that has not played any game I might have. If I were to play Lunar to completion, I might have preferred Ghaleon. But I have not, so I work with what I have available.

And Aaron, you thread nazi, my posts are mine to peruse as I see fit. I don't have to divide or modify the content in any way, shape, or form to suit anyone's tastes (other than for moderation's sake). If I choose to use an entire post to defend anything it will be done.

And complete insanity is an acceptable spring for a villian.

I completely apologize for this horrid white font. Can anyone tell me how to stop this BS?

[WyLD iNk]

Aaron, sorry about that "thread nazi" remark.

[Superdog]

Maybe I'm just dense, but what was Hitler's motivation beyond domination and extermination. I guess he wanted to make Germany strong and re-build but, that doesn't need all the crap he did to be accomplished. What other motivition was there?

[Dead_and_Messed_Up]

Originally Posted by Superdog

Maybe I'm just dense, but what was Hitler's motivation beyond domination and extermination. I guess he wanted to make Germany strong and re-build but, that doesn't need all the crap he did to be accomplished. What other motivition was there?

There was some inferiority he felt due to an unfortunate incident involving (a) a goat and (b) one of his testicles.

[Superdog]

I guess that would explain it!

[MrPhoenix]

The Silent Hill games are pretty fantastic in this area actually, I can't believe I didn't mention them in my original post. They succeed in having villains with real reasons for what they do, yet still remaining complete villains. I'm referring of course to Dahlia, Alessa and those freaky looking Pyramid Head guys. I haven't played enough of SH3 yet to know much there.

As for Baldur's Gate 2 and its expansion, I've never gotten far enough into those games to find out much about the villains... I was planning to go the whole hog these holidays but then it started crashing on me. Ugh.

I think the most motivated villain in a Square game is Jecht, but as a villain I prefer Kuja because Select the black box below with your cursor to view the spoiler text

you really do hate him for the majority of the game and then it gets all flipped about and you feel sorry for him. I did, anyway. I got tears in my eyes during the endgame when Zidane is with him in the roots of Iifa Tree.

[Zero-Pirate]

Originally Posted by Superdog

Maybe I'm just dense, but what was Hitler's motivation beyond domination and extermination. I guess he wanted to make Germany strong and re-build but, that doesn't need all the crap he did to be accomplished. What other motivition was there?

He believed that white Germans with blonde hair and blue eyes were the supreme race (ironic since he was Austrian and had dark hair) and were the rightful rulers of the world. He thought that people such as the Jews and the Poles were like a plague and needed to be exterminated. So they tried to accomplish these things.

[[__fight__]]

actually it's kind of a misconception about the blonde/blue, he just used that as an example to differentiate certain white people from others, such as jews who are mainly white but dark haired -- aaaaaaaaaaaaaanyway!! offtopic


yes HISTORICAL villains: a cheap and vulgar choice in videogames?