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#1
09-06-2005, 07:30 PM
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Could "Diane" be Betty's stage-name?
has anyone ever discussed the possibility that "Betty" is Diane's original name, meaning Betty legally changed her name to "Diane" when she decided to become an actress?
the reason i thought of this is because when i dream about "my" house, i don't dream about the house i currently occupy, i dream about the house i spent 15 years of my life in. similarly, when "Diane" dreams, she might not see herself as her new name ("Diane"), she might see herself as "Betty," the name she went by for ~18-20 years. this would explain: -why Betty appears first (at the jitter-bug contest - whether it's real or not). -why there is an unidentified "Diane Selwyn" in the dream. it could then be argued that the unidentified "Diane Selwyn" of the dream world knew/loved "Rita" and put the hit out on her, but obviously the hit failed. then, unidentified "Diane Selwyn" killed herself because she believed "Rita" died, but "Rita" was actually meeting Betty (in the type of Betty-and-Camilla/Rita meeting circumstance Betty could only dream of). this would also better explain "Rita's" relationship with unidentified Diane. this is just an idea though. let me know what you think. |
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#2
09-06-2005, 10:28 PM
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let me try to clarify:
in the film, there's the dream world and the real world. in the real world, maybe Diane Selwyn was born with the name "Betty Elms." she changed her name to Diane Selwyn because Betty Elms was not hollywood enough. however, since she was known as Betty for the first 18-20 years of her life before she changed her name to Diane, maybe she only thinks of herself as Betty when she dreams (because of her 18-20 year habit of being known as Betty). also in my post above, "unidentified Diane" = the corpse. |
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#3
09-07-2005, 05:23 AM
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Good point. That it's Betty who appears at the jitterbug contest in the beginning rather Diane (we know this from the credits) is definitely something that continues to elude a lot of good theories out there...
__________________
There NEVER was a woman like Gilda. |
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#4
10-03-2005, 02:02 PM
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#5
10-04-2005, 11:55 PM
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I like the name-change theory. If we assume that those two old people are Diane's parents as I do, then it would make sense that they know her as Betty when they say goodbye after the flight, i.e. family wouldn't call you by your stage-name.
But...the other half I didn't understand. Why are you calling the corpse "unidentified"? It is identified; the corpse wakes up and the neighbor identifies her as "Diane". |
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#6
10-17-2005, 05:58 AM
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when diane meets the hitman at winkie's - before she has her fantasy/dream - she sees a waitress named betty - so isn't DL leading us to believe that's where the name "betty" came from?
but then why do we see Betty in the jitterbug scene if diane has not yet fallen asleep and therefore her fantasy has not yet begun? Or if the jitterbug scene is part of her fantasy, then why does diane say she won a jitterbug contest at the dinner party? Lying? (btw the possibility that diane is lying in her conversation at the dinner party has been brought up elsewhere).
__________________
There NEVER was a woman like Gilda. |
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#7
10-17-2005, 12:56 PM
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__________________
After a year on the wagon, let's see if I can take a sip of MD without going on a toot. Last edited by mdholic; 10-17-2005 at 01:15 PM. |
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#8
10-20-2005, 07:05 PM
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"when diane meets the hitman at winkie's - before she has her fantasy/dream - she sees a waitress named betty - so isn't DL leading us to believe that's where the name "betty" came from?"
Spaghetti sauce, you're absolutely right. DL directly implies that Diane, in her dream, takes the name "Betty" because she previously saw the name on the waitress' tag at Winkies. The deeper theory proposed earlier in this thread--that "Betty" is Diane's real name and that Diane once waitressed at Winkies as "Betty"--is much more difficult to support via DL's implications. This theory arises from a deeper reading of the film, even though it is more speculative (more weakly supported by contextual evidence). Therefore it's good to distinguish between the things directly implied by DL, and those interpretations that are farther-out. Far-out interpretations may be interesting, but (if they are unsupported) likely show the interpreter's idiosyncracy rather than any meaning intrinsic to the film. Thanks for keeping us down-to-earth, sauce. Of course I'd still love to hear more contextual evidence from somebody for the stage-name theory. "but then why do we see Betty in the jitterbug scene if diane has not yet fallen asleep and therefore her fantasy has not yet begun?" We go from jitterbug/SylviaNorth scene to pillow scene--the first two scenes of the movie. The jitterbug scene moves in shadows, fades, and cuts; while the pillow scene moves in real time. Thus the jitterbug scene is fantasy; and the pillow scene is real. Since the jitterbug scene occurs right before the pillow: I think that, before Diane falls asleep, she is recalling the jitterbug contest (her first ticket to the world of film) and the Sylvia North Story (where she and Camilla auditioned together). I hope that answered the questions. |
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#9
10-30-2005, 01:14 AM
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although i think some good ideas have been brought up here and alot of loose ends tied i dont think that betty is dianes real name and diane her stage name.. i believe the link of dianes mind swapping the name on the name badge of betty to diane because thats how she got the name betty in the first place is too clear to ignore. also i think thats although she may have changed her name to suit hollywood, if she still saw herself as the dream implies as betty, wouldnt she allow her lovers to call her betty as it is more personal to her? therefore DeRosa and camilla would call her betty, not diane.. just a thought could be way off of course
 i have heard the idea that diane previously worked at winkies before so i cant ignore this theory completelyi do find this theory an interesting one i never would have thought of it that way so any other evidence supporting it i would be very interested to read.. could make a believer out of me yet
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#10
10-30-2005, 08:03 PM
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I'm with Gretza. I'm still totally open to persuasion on the name-change idea.
Incidentally, just realized that in my prior post, I was mixing up two different (though similar) scenes. I was calling the first scene with the dance and the white light the "jitterbug/SylNorthStory scene" because I thought Camilla was in this scene in a white wig standing next to Diane. (And the wig would indicate that Diane & Camilla were auditioning for the same role; hence the "Sylvia North Story" part) But the wigged Camilla was actually NOT in that first jitterbug scene with the white light--my bad. Wigged Camilla appeared in white light only at the END of the movie after Diane kills herself. It would be interesting to compare these two white-light scenes, and determine what they tell us about the movie. |
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#11
11-01-2005, 01:43 PM
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this is what my name-change theory explains for me:
-why betty appears first. -why dream-betty and dream-diane are 2 diff. people (or why a dream-diane even exist). -why dream-betty doesnt know who dream-diane is. -what rita was doing on mulholland dr. (her relationship with dream-diane, which mirrors real-camilla & real-diane's relationship). i'll go into more detail tonight when i have more time. i'll include stuff about the name-tag, what real-diane's lovers called her, louise bonner, and rita's ouiji board, and the blue-haired lady. |
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#12
11-01-2005, 05:06 PM
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let me first say i subscribe to the theory that as the dream progresses, camilla's soul increasingly gains control of rita, who gains control of dream-betty and eventually the entire dream (and in doing so, she controls what the sleeping/dreaming real-diane sees). i also believe blue represents the truth of what happened/the true version of something.
THE NAME TAG: saying the name tag swap is meant to show how real-diane created the name betty for her dream is an interpretation (with a number of holes). the name-change interpretation could be that since rita saw the diane-name-tag and remembered that she knew someone named diane, when real-diane saw the betty-name-tag she remembered her real name is betty. WHAT HER LOVERS CALL HER: i also subscribe to the abuse theory and much of the twisted threesome theory. with these theories, i could easily see betty changing her name before she went to hollywood and not telling anyone she met, not even her "lovers". RITA'S OUIJI BOARD: the ouiji board contacts camilla's soul, who then contacts louise bonner. LOUISE BONNER: "my name's betty." "no its not. thats not what she said." camilla's soul, thinking diane is betty's real name, contacted louise bonner. there is a blue rim around louise's hood. BLUE-HAIRED LADY: the true version of camilla's soul. sitting in hell/club silencio. A BRIEF OVERVIEW: -betty changes name to diane and goes to hollywood. -has twisted relationship with camilla and has her killed. -dreams that she has come to hollywood as betty and meets rita, who has just escaped being killed by an actress named diane selwyn. |
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#13
11-03-2005, 12:31 PM
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Muse, thanks for being so patient about explaining your interpretation. You're on to something that I still may not fully understand. But I am trying my best to understand; I respect the name-change theory much more now since it seems you have a fair bit of evidence for it, and you've obviously thought it through in some detail. I am seeing how the theory conveniently fits the plot (solely as a bit of fun speculation), but still I'm not seeing how the theory is necessary to explain the plot.
I still believe that the plot is just as easily--and more directly--explained without aid of the name-change theory. If I'm tough on the theory below, it's because I'm honestly trying to get this theory to work in my own head as a critical ideological plot piece. I'm not intending to disregard your thoughts nor am I trying to be critical for the sake of being critical. No doubt, it's far more difficult to construct new ideas and it's relatively easy to play the critic. Muse, you've done the tougher part already. "this is what my name-change theory explains for me: -why betty appears first..." why Betty appears first in the movie or why Betty appears in earlier scenes chronologically (like the airport and arriving at Aunt Ruth's house)? Or maybe you mean both. To me it still seems simpler to assume that Betty appears first in the movie (the dream section) just because Diane saw a waitress' name tag. --incidentally, what are the holes in this idea? cause I don't see them-- Also to me it still seems simpler to assume that Betty appears in earlier scenes chronologically (the airport and Aunt Ruth's house) merely because the different name is only part of the dream and not part of any actual name-change of Diane's. "...why dream-betty and dream-diane are 2 diff. people (or why a dream-diane even exist)..." To me it still seems simpler to say that, since it's a dream, Diane is dissociating herself from her "bad side" by calling herself by the waitress' name "Betty" (and not because Diane's name was once "Betty"). Dream-Diane (aka corpse) appears when the dream is nearly over, because Diane the dreamer is gradually awakening from her wish-fulfillment into her sucky real life. The dreamer's gradually realizing that "something bad is happening". "...why dream-betty doesnt know who dream-diane is..." Same thing here. Since it's a dream, it seems simpler to assume that Diane is just dissociating from her bad side and dreaming up different characters which each represent a different part of her psyche. Here too, the name-change theory doesn't seem necessary in explaining the plot. "...what rita was doing on mulholland dr. (her relationship with dream-diane, which mirrors real-camilla & real-diane's relationship)." First of all you mean Rita's relationship with Betty, right? (not dream-Diane cause dream-Diane is a corpse, right?)...I'm afraid I don't understand your point here; I don't understand why Rita's car accident would help explain Diane changing her name from Betty. Maybe this point is a critical reason for the theory, and if so: sorry I'm missing it. "the name-change interpretation could be that since rita saw the diane-name-tag and remembered that she knew someone named diane, when real-diane saw the betty-name-tag she remembered her real name is betty." Hmm I really like this one (and Muse, you're gradually winning me over). One might assume (as I've assumed) that the name-tag scene reappears in the dream because 1. it's a small detail incorporated from Diane's waking life; and perhaps because 2. it occurs right at the scene of Diane's hiring of the hitman--an event so significant in Diane's life that many of its random details reappear in her dream. Such assumptions, however, require that the name-tag be significant solely in relation to the hitman-hiring scene. But Muse, your theory heightens the name-tag's significance to Diane; and therefore your theory offers a more distinct reason for the name-tag to be in the dream. "Betty" wouldn't be just a random detail from the albeit significant scene with Joe; but "Betty" is itself a significant detail, because Diane is recalling her original name. So I like your name-tag explanation better than mine. This is the one piece of evidence that, I think, backs up your theory really well. "i could easily see betty changing her name before she went to hollywood and not telling anyone she met, not even her "lovers"." This piece of evidence makes the name-change theory conveniently fit the plot, and the evidence works as far as this speculative "fit" goes. But alone it relies on more substantial evidence that would make the name-change theory necessary to the plot. "RITA'S OUIJI BOARD" I need to review the scene with the ouija board again; for some reason I just can't recall it vividly. So if this is crucial to the theory, my bad. " 'my name's betty.' 'no its not. thats not what she said.' " Here, rather than saying it's because Betty changed her name to Diane, I think it's easier to say that (being this is Diane's dream) her wish-fulfillment is gradually coming undone. The waking truth that her name's actually "Diane" is starting to seep through. And it seems that the final points about the hood's blue rim and the blue-haired lady all turn on Louise's quoted evidence above. Muse, if all you meant to do with the name-change theory was to bring up an interesting little "what-if", then I have absolutely no problems. Sure, it works as a purely speculative interpretation. But, if the theory is intended to be a necessary piece of the MD puzzle, then I do have problems (as listed above) with most of the evidence aside from that one part paralleling Camilla's recollection of "Diane" with Diane's (theoretically proposed) recollection of "Betty" as an alias. I'm not sure whether or not Camilla's recollection in the dream is itself enough to justify the name-change theory. I'll have to look over that ouija scene. Random sidenote: I'm very impressed with the observation of Louise's blue hood...I'd just noticed that 2 weeks ago. Lynch has an interesting juxtaposition of imagery here: Adam-in-Room-16 is a scene shortly before the Louise scene and, if you recall, behind Adam is a Virgin Mary characteristically depicted in a long flowy blue-hooded garment. If Mary is in blue and white and Louise is in blue and black, maybe we symbolically have a good-and-evil type faceoff. Anyway, I'm starting to see more in this theory that I hadn't seen before. Muse or anybody else, feel free to continue chipping away at my skepticism. Thanks. |
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#14
11-04-2005, 03:33 AM
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BETTY APPEARING FIRST: in the credits, the cast is listed in order of appearance, and betty appears first.
RITA ON MULHOLLAND?: in the dream, someone was trying to kill rita; in realty, real-diane killed camilla. i think rita was almost killed by dream-diane(the corpse), and they had a relationship exactly like camilla and real-diane. this would answer the questions of why rita was on MD, who the corpse was, and how rita knew dream-diane. i agree that that the dream gradually unravels to reveal the truth, but i think this occurs because camilla's soul gradually hijacks the dream, almost as if she wants to present a truth so ugly that real-diane is driven to suicide. more evidence for the hijacking has just come to my attention as md plays in the background: can real-diane speak spanish? if not, club silencio would most likely be the manifestation of camilla's soul, not a dreaming real-diane. thanks for the replies. |
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#15
10-08-2006, 01:31 PM
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So when I read your post above, that's what immediately came to mind. I think it's a great theory that's one of the more straightforward ones that can easily fit. And actually, it's funny, when I watched MD for the first time, I was struck that it seemed like it had taken some cues from Marilyn's life, turned them a bit on their ear, and through that filter re-translated what it is that Betty/Diane was. Marilyn is such an icon, such a part of Americana, that people look to her and call her the quintessential Hollywood starlet - young, blonde, beautiful, with such innocence, with such a bigger than life persona, was absolutely riveting to watch on screen, and here she's leading a life of lonely, quiet desperation behind it all. It seemed to me at the time that Betty/Diane was loosely modeled in the same. |
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#16
10-18-2006, 09:00 AM
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Diane\Betty
[quote=onethreeMsee]has anyone ever discussed the possibility that "Betty" is Diane's original name, meaning Betty legally changed her name to "Diane" when she decided to become an actress?
That's a very interesting theory! It's funny because when I first ended Mulholland Drive my very first thought was that everything had been real, Betty\Diane and Rita\Camilla... I had a very curious idea (later I abandoned it)... I thought that Diane had "pretended" to be Betty to the amnesiac Rita, who survived the accident... that it had been some sort of "plan" of Diane to take revenge of Camilla, or maybe to regain her love... but then everything had gone wrong anyway... although Diane couldn't know where "Rita" was and it seems that she was actually killed... Anyway, I now remember a Naomi Watts' quote about her character\s: "The movie could also show how Betty would become if she lived too long in Hollywood". So, could they really be the same person (chronologically speaking?) Could it be possible that "Diane" was just Betty's "movie name" just as "Camilla" could be the name "Rita" later would use on stage? I'm not too convinced of my own theories:-) but it's interesting to exchange opinions anyway... |
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#17
10-18-2006, 01:10 PM
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It's somehow a little hard to hold that name change idea in my mind though, and easier to see the difference as two versions of the story. I guess it doesn't matter to me if she changed her name or not because any way you look at it, Betty and Diane always turn out to be the same person. In just about any view of the movie I can remember seeing, we willingly fool ourselves for a moment into seeing them as two people in order to compare them — just because we know they are the same. Also, even if we do see it that way, the two parts of the film are still separate because we still have Camilla played by two different actresses for the blonde and brunette parts, so that we can see the difference. They don't change names in the two parts of the film, they change appearaces. Maybe that is why "Rita" puts on the blonde wig — because she is realizing who she is and is making herself look a little more like the Camilla we've seen already. But it's that "almost" that makes it work for me. I'd hate to see the movie changed to where she has plastic surgery so that she looks just like Melissa George. |
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#18
10-21-2006, 05:52 AM
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Yeah, I have to say I agree with the dream interpretation that considers the movie to have a "dream" and a "reality" part, so Betty is actually Diane and Rita is Camilla, and Betty was the name Diane too from the waitress-tag at Winkie's.
Little Note: I think the name "Betty" could have been inspired to David Lynch by one of his (and my) favourite movies ever, "Sunset Boulevard" by Billy Wilder (Lynch often quotes it, and Rita finds herself on Sunset Boulevard after the accident). In the movie the girl named Betty is almost as blonde, sweet and innocent as our MD Betty. Young broke scriptwriter Joe Gillis (William Holden) falls in love with her, Betty reciprocates, while he doesn't love the older silent (Silencio?) movie diva, Norma Desmond (Gloria Swanson), who's deeply in love with him but isn't able to accept almost everyone seems to have forgotten her. I don't want to spoil the end of this beautiful, great movie, but Camilla's and Joe's fates are pretty silimar I think... see why! Umm, just coincidences?:-) As it is said in "Lost Highway": "There's no such coincidence like a bad coincidence..." |
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#19
10-21-2006, 08:25 AM
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