[immOl8]

Originally Posted by Betterdayz

yeah they made the first one. Didn't really plan on doing more and then decided to do the sequels.

The first one is a good standalone film with no need for sequels. I still prefer reloaded to it though.

The wachowskis intended to make all three, they "conceived it in paradox", pitched the idea of a trilogy to the Warner Bros. exec who told them to take it one step at a time. They made Bound, shot the Matrix, and shot the two phenomenally awesome sequels.....
Understand that they envisioned the story as a trilogy....
for fukc's sake.

[max314]

Originally Posted by leolo

Yes, because "Empire" is really only a reash of "A new hope", and the hero doesn't grow and doesn't get a better understanding of his world and his own capabilities.

He learns what Obi-Wan already knew in the first film.

His mentor is now Yoda instead of Ben.

His 'herald' is now Ben instead of the droids.

The only thig he learns is that Vader is his father and that 'the darkness lies within him'.

It's nice stuff, but it's a little simplistic.

It's not really 'new', it's just more of the same.

Reloaded offered so many new things in terms of expanding the scope of the Matrix, and gaining a better understanding of how it works and finding out "just how deep the rabbit hole goes".

You know for a fact, really?

Oh, yeah.

Maybe you should not confuse facts with opinions.

Maybe you should quit telling me what to do.

I'm going to tell you a fact: Some people actually understands all your explanations about "The Matrix trilogy" and still doesn't find them that great.

Is it really so hard to accept?

It's not at all "hard to accept".

It's like telling someone a joke, and then having to explain the fucking punch line.

It detracts from the purity of the experience, of course, thus decreasing one's appreciation of the original expression.

Of course, there are those who have got it and have totally started loving the trilogy. As my inbox will confirm.

No explanation is going to convince me that I should care for Neo, when the Wachowskis never took the time to make him a real person.

Your level of empathy with the story has nothing to do with me.

That's your personal opinion and you're more than entitled to it.

Let's make a comparaison with a better trilogy with a real emotional resonance (even though we all know that Philosophy is what Art is really about).

Neo = Hacker who is taken into the world of the Matrix (oh yeah, his world was fictitious, but from what we see, it doesn't seem like a big loss). Maybe a better idea would have been to give him a girlfriend or a child, and then take it away from him
Luke = Boy with a dream who's family gets killed before he goes on his journey. (Should I really talk about the two sunsets scene?)

Background : Luke

This is all purely subjective. A matter of mere preference.

But I'll entertain your challenge.

One could say that Neo as a young man who is disillusioned with the corporatism of the world around him reflects the inner psyches of many young men and women. The mysterious nature of the opening scenes in which he is receiving signs and symbols (should I really talk about the creepy "follow the white rabbit" gag?) and as the illusion begins to unravel (should I really talk about the interrogation scene, or his introduction to Morpeus, or the pod field scene?), your transportation and investment into the Wachowskis' fictional wonderland is signed, sealed and delivered.

Morpheus

: Unknown guy who teaches Neo everything he knows.
Obi Wan: The mentor of Luke's father, who fights him and leaves him for dead. He gets killed in front of Luke by that same person, before Luke ever had the chance to learn everything.

Star Wars goes for the more operatic option, using family ties and old friends to make a classic tale. Obi-Wan is a manifestation of this motif.

The Matrix goes for mystery and esoteric visions, turning our mundane lives into a surreal dreamscape that we can't help but want to explore. Morpheus, named after the God of dreams and change, is a manifestation of this motif.

They're both suited in their own respective contexts.

I don't see why you insist on comparing them.

Han Solo

: Cynical, egoïstical bandit who befriends Luke and ultimately saves his life and the rebellion, by putting his head on the block.
Neo: ...

Neo is a loner by nature, and this is seen in all three of the films. It is his isolation from other people that makes him so unique and somewhat darker than other heroes. The Matrix is not quite as fluffy and wholesome as Star Wars.

Nevertheless, the crew on the Neb in the first film provide some great group interactions between them and Neo. Mouse, Tank, Apoc, Morpheus and Trinity come to mind. Even Cypher, although his allegiances change.

Leïa

: Hardheaded princess who stands on his own and his a pivotal force in the rebellion against the Empire (her story and background is as great as Luke's) . Potential love interest for the hero, but she turns out to be his sister who causes him to fall to the dark side for a moment.
Trinity : About the same than Leïa, but less hardheaded and pivotal. Neo is supposed to fall for her, he does for some reasons. I must admit that the dying scene would have been nice if it had been well executed.

Heh...you've just said "they're the same...but I like Leia better".

P.S. - You obviously didn't get the whole point of what Neo and Trinity's 'love' was about. The dilemma you're supposed to wonder about is "would they have fallen for each other if the Oracle had never told Trinity that she would fall in love with the One?"

Vader:

Luke's father who brought the downfall of the Jedi order, and whom Luke must fight to save the galaxy. In the end, Luke refuses to kill his father, refusing to become like him, and in doing so, saves the galaxy.
Agent Smith: A bug with no connection to the hero. In the end, Neo does about the same thing Luke does, but with much more philosophical meaning and much less emotional resonance. Choose your side..
(I over simplified, but I really wanted to concentrate on the connections)

You obviously forgot the scene where Smith talks about their "connection" within one another

I won't even bother with peripheral characters, because Star Wars crushes The Matrix in a heartbeat when it comes to what they bring to the hero's journey.

What? Ewoks?

Whoop-dee-fuckin'-doo.

I'd take Seraph, the Twins, the Merovingian, Persephone, the Neb crew, the members of the Zion fleet, the Deus Ex Machina, Captain Mifuné, Captain Roland, et al any day over and above aliens that resemble/are sock puppets.

What's funny is that I can imagine a story being told about nearly all the Star Wars characters just by what we know of their background (even Lando). I just can't picture a movie about Trinity's life, maybe Morpheus... But I'm not even sure, after all it would look like Neo's, but with no resolution.

One of Trinity's missions was already shown in the Animatrix (see Detective Story), and it was just the tip of a potentially huge iceberg. Each of the characters - programs and humans alike - has a potentially vast reservoir of backstory.

And if you don't think that Morpheus' arc has any resolution, you need to watch the third film again. You have to realise that Morpheus' arc essentially starts at the end of Reloaded, which is a curious thing.

The Matrix is far more deep when it comes to anything "rational"(?), but Star Wars is a far more emotionally deep.

Pure opinion. Nothing even remotely debateable.

I'll take the second type of deepness anytime, anywhere.

Be my guest.

The love relationship in The Matrix is supposed to be crucial, but I never felt like it was real, simply because to me, the Wachowski brothers made the mistake of thinking we should accept their love simply because they told us. (The prequels anyone?)

Again, I refer you to my earlier question: was Neo and Trinity's relationship merely forged by the Oracle so that she could acheive her ends?

What I actually saw is: no chemistry and no real relationship moments. It takes more to build up a relationship than saying "I love you" and having sex.

I don't think that their love arc was necessarily an issue for the Wachowskis, because they had to have a purely plutonic love in order for their themes to work.

Nevertheless, their relationship is put to the test several times, most notably in the Merovingian's restaurant when Persephone demands a kiss from Neo in return for the Keymaker. Furthermore, her foreboding comment that "such a thing is not meant to last" adds to the overall investment in the depth of their relationship.

And Neo's fight, while great, never provided any tension to me, simply because:
1-I never felt he was in any real danger
2-The fights in themselves never seemed to have much at stake. It always felt more like: "Let's take a break and get back to the plot later on."

The Matrix:

Construct Training - Neo learns what he can and can't do...a much-needed vicarious exploration for the audience. We're as curious as the Neb crew to see whether or not he is the One.

Neo v. Smith 1 - His life is at stake.

Neo v. Smith 2. - Neo takes on his mantle as the One.


The Matrix Reloaded:

Neo v. Agents - Establishing Neo's powers.

Neo v. Seraph - Seeing someone go toe-to-toe with Neo without breaking a sweat should spark curiosity as to just what the fuck is going on here...

Neo v. Smith - Smith returns...and overwhelms Neo, thus establishing that he is reborn as a force to be reckoned with.

Neo v. Exiles - We learn that Neo can still die within the Matrix. The huge-ass blades missing his head by mere millimeters should put you on the edge of your seat after you learn that.


The Matrix Revolutions:

Neo v. Trainman - Neo gets his ass handed to him. He is trapped and "may never see another face for the rest of his life".

Neo v. Bane - Neo loses his eyes..and gains a new pair. Trinity's life is in danger, also.

Neo v. Smith - Neo must defeat Smith, who has now assumed the powers of the Oracle. If he loses, Zion is annihilated, the machine world is annihilated, and the billions of humans jacked into the Matrix are annihilated. Pretty high stakes if you ask me.

If I may: I'll take Luke Vs Vader anytime.

Of course you may.

You have to know that if you answer, I will not answer back. But I'll read. So do as you please.

Fair enough.

I really hate writing long replies:
1-I lose too much time

Then you're obviously the smarter one

2-I can't write that many words without making a handful of mistakes. So I'm sorry in advance for my poor english skills.

Not at all. Your English is decent. I just corrected someone on another board who wrote "know" instead of "no", so you're in the green

[max314]

Originally Posted by zpt4x

Why are you ashamed?

Irritated.

Dont deny what you are.

I will.

You have put too much effort into your defense of the matrix trilogy to try and pretend your not.

I see something I thought totally rocked the socks off anything I've ever seen, and then shed-loads of people slate it when most of them obviously have no clue what's going on.

It's like seeing the most beautifully carved statue you've ever seen, and people walking past it going "it's just a piece of rock".

The only thing im saying is your opinion is alittle biased.

Hardly.

I went into Reloaded expecting a rehash of the first film, which I was never really a 'major' fan of to begin with.

I ended up believing that the Wachowskis were onto something huge here (most other people seemed to think that after the first film, but I didn't see anything vastly new until Reloaded), and Revolutions just served as the ultimate pay-off, and cemented my utmost respect for the trilogy.

Your strict devotion to it shows your one of the few people that fit the demographic the makers were aiming for with their below sub-par sequels (i'll avoid calling them crap so i wont upset you).

What you perceive as "strict devotion" is more a case of "sheer annoyance".

I'm not going to sit here and be told that the sky is pink by someone who's colour blind.

[max314]

Originally Posted by Doubting Thomas

It uses the brain in a vat theory which is deep rooted in the ideology of solipsism (which such religions as Hinduism and Buddhism use). So, yes, this is a solpsists cream dream.

If you read it back, you'll realise that my post stated how the trilogy "uses the existentialist/solipsist pursuit to conclude that this very journey is but a means to an end. One of mass inclusion, and thus existentialism through faith, belief, religion becomes a conduit to achieving a truer enlightenment that actually delegates the self to a secondary-though-indespensible entity within the greater cosmic arena".

In other words, I agree. But your implication seemed condescending and simplistic, thus the reason I felt inclined to flesh it out.

What you said was like saying "LOTR is about Frodo trying to chuck a ring into a volcano".

The hand to hand combat was pedestrian when compared to the entire HK action cinema out there. Any film starring Donnie Yen or directed by Tsui Hark would be good examples.

Who's talking about Hong Kong movies, here?

The scenes were actually very well choreographed and executed considering the untrained fighters involved in the process, and the integration of special effects to get such incredible depictions of manga-esque action beats was quite awesome.

I agree with you that these films are good exercises in visual ingenuity but it still left me wishing that they would have toned down on the action. These films, to me, were marred by the huge action set pieces (primarily in the sequels).

But the Brothers were obviously influenced by Hong Kong movies. And action sequences in those movies are pretty damn long, as I recall.

[max314]

Originally Posted by immOl8

The wachowskis intended to make all three, they "conceived it in paradox", pitched the idea of a trilogy to the Warner Bros. exec who told them to take it one step at a time. They made Bound, shot the Matrix, and shot the two phenomenally awesome sequels.....
Understand that they envisioned the story as a trilogy....
for fukc's sake.

It's strange...I can't see the first movie on its own anymore. It's like stopping a film after the first act, or something. It's incomplete.

[Huck]

Originally Posted by max314

He learns what Obi-Wan already knew in the first film.

His mentor is now Yoda instead of Ben.

His 'herald' is now Ben instead of the droids.

The only thig he learns is that Vader is his father and that 'the darkness lies within him'.

It's nice stuff, but it's a little simplistic.

It's not really 'new', it's just more of the same.

Reloaded offered so many new things in terms of expanding the scope of the Matrix, and gaining a better understanding of how it works and finding out "just how deep the rabbit hole goes".

Oh, yeah.

Maybe you should quit telling me what to do.

It's not at all "hard to accept".

It's like telling someone a joke, and then having to explain the fucking punch line.

It detracts from the purity of the experience, of course, thus decreasing one's appreciation of the original expression.

Of course, there are those who have got it and have totally started loving the trilogy. As my inbox will confirm.

Your level of empathy with the story has nothing to do with me.

That's your personal opinion and you're more than entitled to it.

This is all purely subjective. A matter of mere preference.

But I'll entertain your challenge.

One could say that Neo as a young man who is disillusioned with the corporatism of the world around him reflects the inner psyches of many young men and women. The mysterious nature of the opening scenes in which he is receiving signs and symbols (should I really talk about the creepy "follow the white rabbit" gag?) and as the illusion begins to unravel (should I really talk about the interrogation scene, or his introduction to Morpeus, or the pod field scene?), your transportation and investment into the Wachowskis' fictional wonderland is signed, sealed and delivered.

[b]Star Wars goes for the more operatic option, using family ties and old friends to make a classic tale. Obi-Wan is a manifestation of this motif.

The Matrix goes for mystery and esoteric visions, turning our mundane lives into a surreal dreamscape that we can't help but want to explore. Morpheus, named after the God of dreams and change, is a manifestation of this motif.

They're both suited in their own respective contexts.

I don't see why you insist on comparing them.

[b]Neo is a loner by nature, and this is seen in all three of the films. It is his isolation from other people that makes him so unique and somewhat darker than other heroes. The Matrix is not quite as fluffy and wholesome as Star Wars.

Nevertheless, the crew on the Neb in the first film provide some great group interactions between them and Neo. Mouse, Tank, Apoc, Morpheus and Trinity come to mind. Even Cypher, although his allegiances change.

[b]Heh...you've just said "they're the same...but I like Leia better".

P.S. - You obviously didn't get the whole point of what Neo and Trinity's 'love' was about. The dilemma you're supposed to wonder about is "would they have fallen for each other if the Oracle had never told Trinity that she would fall in love with the One?"

[b]You obviously forgot the scene where Smith talks about their "connection" within one another

What? Ewoks?

Whoop-dee-fuckin'-doo.

I'd take Seraph, the Twins, the Merovingian, Persephone, the Neb crew, the members of the Zion fleet, the Deus Ex Machina, Captain Mifuné, Captain Roland, et al any day over and above aliens that resemble/are sock puppets.

One of Trinity's missions was already shown in the Animatrix (see Detective Story), and it was just the tip of a potentially huge iceberg. Each of the characters - programs and humans alike - has a potentially vast reservoir of backstory.

And if you don't think that Morpheus' arc has any resolution, you need to watch the third film again. You have to realise that Morpheus' arc essentially starts at the end of Reloaded, which is a curious thing.

Pure opinion. Nothing even remotely debateable.

Be my guest.

Again, I refer you to my earlier question: was Neo and Trinity's relationship merely forged by the Oracle so that she could acheive her ends?

I don't think that their love arc was necessarily an issue for the Wachowskis, because they had to have a purely plutonic love in order for their themes to work.

Nevertheless, their relationship is put to the test several times, most notably in the Merovingian's restaurant when Persephone demands a kiss from Neo in return for the Keymaker. Furthermore, her foreboding comment that "such a thing is not meant to last" adds to the overall investment in the depth of their relationship.

The Matrix:

Construct Training - Neo learns what he can and can't do...a much-needed vicarious exploration for the audience. We're as curious as the Neb crew to see whether or not he is the One.

Neo v. Smith 1 - His life is at stake.

Neo v. Smith 2. - Neo takes on his mantle as the One.


The Matrix Reloaded:

Neo v. Agents - Establishing Neo's powers.

Neo v. Seraph - Seeing someone go toe-to-toe with Neo without breaking a sweat should spark curiosity as to just what the fuck is going on here...

Neo v. Smith - Smith returns...and overwhelms Neo, thus establishing that he is reborn as a force to be reckoned with.

Neo v. Exiles - We learn that Neo can still die within the Matrix. The huge-ass blades missing his head by mere millimeters should put you on the edge of your seat after you learn that.


The Matrix Revolutions:

Neo v. Trainman - Neo gets his ass handed to him. He is trapped and "may never see another face for the rest of his life".

Neo v. Bane - Neo loses his eyes..and gains a new pair. Trinity's life is in danger, also.

Neo v. Smith - Neo must defeat Smith, who has now assumed the powers of the Oracle. If he loses, Zion is annihilated, the machine world is annihilated, and the billions of humans jacked into the Matrix are annihilated. Pretty high stakes if you ask me.


Of course you may.


Fair enough.

Then you're obviously the smarter one

Not at all. Your English is decent. I just corrected someone on another board who wrote "know" instead of "no", so you're in the green

Longest. Post. Ever.

Good points though