[HyperOnion]

Originally Posted by DeadScreenSky

I did the exact same thing!

So did I. Not so much from boredom, but because I'm a giant ***** and can't handle the later levels.

Is there some hot new sci-fi setting they could steal from?

Firefly, of course. Only the best sci-fi setting there is, new or old!

(Don't make me put a kidding emoticon here)

[trip1eX]

Anyone play DOTA, a mod for WC3? IF not, check it out. PRetty sweet.

[TappyTibbons]

Looky... now we are on the bestest game evah!
http://www.blizzard.com/

Oooo... and now it's linked here too.
http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/

[OmicronPyro]

Originally Posted by TappyTibbons

Looky... now we are on the bestest game evah!
http://www.blizzard.com/

Hey, that guy looks familiar.

[Chairman Yang]

Dawn of War (or rather, Dark Crusade, which is what I've played) is excellent, but really epitomizes my inherent problem with the traditional RTS genre. There's just too damn much to handle in too short a time. Adding more depth and complexity is of minimal value, because there's already more there than most people can actually use in a real-time matchup.

I think there's much more potential in a modern turn-based WH40K game based on the tabletop game (and I know there was an old game like this that used the Panzer General engine, but it doesn't count for a number of reasons). I know Relic will never do this in the current groupthinking environment of the game industry, though.

[Darko Milicic]

Originally Posted by trip1eX

Anyone play DOTA, a mod for WC3? IF not, check it out. PRetty sweet.

I would play only DOTA for weeks on end. Talk about life evaporation.

[TappyTibbons]

Must be pretty close... noon in S. Korea.

http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/city.html?n=235

[TappyTibbons]

Originally Posted by TappyTibbons

Must be pretty close... noon in S. Korea.

http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/city.html?n=235

EDIT: Actually I just read... 10PM PST the announcement will be made. So two hours...

[DeadScreenSky]

Originally Posted by HyperOnion

So did I. Not so much from boredom, but because I'm a giant ***** and can't handle the later levels.

It was boredom on my part.

Firefly, of course. Only the best sci-fi setting there is, new or old!

(Don't make me put a kidding emoticon here)

I want to make some vague connection between Starcraft's "southerners in space" and "cowboys in space", but I'll be damned if I can get it to work.

Originally Posted by Chairman Yang

Dawn of War (or rather, Dark Crusade, which is what I've played) is excellent, but really epitomizes my inherent problem with the traditional RTS genre. There's just too damn much to handle in too short a time. Adding more depth and complexity is of minimal value, because there's already more there than most people can actually use in a real-time matchup.

I think there's much more potential in a modern turn-based WH40K game based on the tabletop game (and I know there was an old game like this that used the Panzer General engine, but it doesn't count for a number of reasons). I know Relic will never do this in the current groupthinking environment of the game industry, though.

I think a lot of it depends on what side you use. The Tau and Necrons in particular are pretty easy to handle once you get some hotkeys and basic automation (ex: using shift to queue orders so you don't have to nurse builder units or right clicking to add troops instead of left clicking a bunch of times) down. It certainly feels easier to me than something like Company of Heroes. But yeah, there's definitely that initial learning period where you have to get fast at the basic control stuff.

I'm not sure it's so much a developer groupthink issue, but one more of catering to the playerbase. I'm positive one of the reasons CoH is more micromanagement-based is because fans bitched about Dawn of War being too simple to play. There's clearly space for a RTS that is a little more leisurely paced, but the problem is that the hardcore probably won't accept it.

And honestly I feel real-time is probably the way to go with W40K videogames. I love turn-based games, but they don't really have that visceral "oh ****" quality that the setting needs.

[Jbourne37]

Originally Posted by TappyTibbons

EDIT: Actually I just read... 10PM PST the announcement will be made. So two hours...

*looks at watch*

Yup.

[DeadScreenSky]

Wow, I don't think anybody expected Blizzard to announce that.

Thinking about it I guess it makes sense, though.

[DeadScreenSky]

Seriously, sounds like Dawn of War 2. ****ing A.

[TappyTibbons]

Originally Posted by Jbourne37

*looks at watch*

Yup.

Actually, it's 12am... but it's good to see you so fired up Jbourne that you are waiting by teh clock

[DeadScreenSky]

Originally Posted by IGN

FMV sequence in a spaceship - looks human - zooming in on a metal door - door opening - reveals a guy with a cigar in chains - prisoner - door shuts behind him - there's so much bass the room is shaking - guy steps into some kind of metallic devicce - legs are strapped in - guy rising toward ceiling - Korean text on screen got people very excited - another part of the machine is dropping metal arms on him - machine whirring - applying armor to his torso - extremly detailed visuals here - now guy is strapping on gloves - armor is molding together - seems like a space marine - rockets turn on - tyranid now onscreen - Marine delivers a line

Gotta be Dawn of War 2, right?

[DeadScreenSky]

Anyway, obviously it's Starcraft 2. Hilariously enough it sounds like it's taken even more from Warhammer 40k than before. Ex: jump packs are used by some troops, you can deep strike units onto the battlefield, and the Protoss/Eldar now have robots with long legs that tower above other units. Shameless as always, Blizzard.

[DeadScreenSky]

Space marines, attack!



(That's prerendered, obviously.)

[drawkcaBLovesScarlett]

Originally Posted by DeadScreenSky

I think a lot of it depends on what side you use. The Tau and Necrons in particular are pretty easy to handle once you get some hotkeys and basic automation (ex: using shift to queue orders so you don't have to nurse builder units or right clicking to add troops instead of left clicking a bunch of times) down. It certainly feels easier to me than something like Company of Heroes. But yeah, there's definitely that initial learning period where you have to get fast at the basic control stuff.

I'm not sure it's so much a developer groupthink issue, but one more of catering to the playerbase. I'm positive one of the reasons CoH is more micromanagement-based is because fans bitched about Dawn of War being too simple to play. There's clearly space for a RTS that is a little more leisurely paced, but the problem is that the hardcore probably won't accept it.

And honestly I feel real-time is probably the way to go with W40K videogames. I love turn-based games, but they don't really have that visceral "oh ****" quality that the setting needs.

Or you know, you could do away with the typical builder unit entirely by actually making your builder a valuable unit and only needing to crank out a few build orders here and there...like CoH.

[DeadScreenSky]

Originally Posted by drawkcaB

Or you know, you could do away with the typical builder unit entirely by actually making your builder a valuable unit and only needing to crank out a few build orders here and there...like CoH.

I use my builder units a lot more in CoH that I do in most RTSes, particularly after I stopped using the worthless Infantry Command tree. You're constantly having to use them to build defenses, whereas in Dark Crusade you rarely use them in comparison.

But Dawn of War already did all of that anyway. The only Necron unit that can capture points is their builder unit, they are formidible combat units for the IG, Ork builders can infiltrate (become invisible) for scouting purposes, etc.

Now I really like that building defenses feature of CoH, but I don't see how it does anything that different than plenty of other RTSes in terms of using builder units. I guess I'm not sure what you mean by "typical builder unit".

Personally I've always been kind of fond of C&C's extremely simple building system, but it definitely could use some evolution to bring about a similar level of tactics.

[Digital Geist]

Did you hear that?


It's the sound of millions of Koreans orgasming at the same time.

[DeadScreenSky]

The first three minutes is pretty damn boring, but the end is kind of cool.

[Jbourne37]

Well, Tappy got one thing right. That's counts for something, right?


Nah, it doesn't change the fact that he's acted like a complete idiot and lied about seeing vids that didn't exist.

[drawkcaBLovesScarlett]

Originally Posted by DeadScreenSky

I use my builder units a lot more in CoH that I do in most RTSes, particularly after I stopped using the worthless Infantry Command tree. You're constantly having to use them to build defenses, whereas in Dark Crusade you rarely use them in comparison.

In campaign or MP? You use them in campaign a lot of course because of the defend for X time missions, but not very much in MP. Typically build an extra engie/pionneer, build your baracks/wehrmacht and cap some points. Setup a few initial defences. I love how CoH handles them, they can actually hold their own in a firefight for a while, and they become very important when they have the flame throwers. I treat my engies as normal units who happen to build.

Infantry Command tree isn't bad at all, you just need to make damn sure you have map control when you go down it. The artillery route is great, and you can pop out some Howitzers long before the opposing player can get his heavy armor on the field. Rangers are great if the enemy goes tank heavy, but the reinforcements power needs definite work (been a community complaint for a long, long time).

But Dawn of War already did all of that anyway. The only Necron unit that can capture points is their builder unit, they are formidible combat units for the IG, Ork builders can infiltrate (become invisible) for scouting purposes, etc.

Now I really like that building defenses feature of CoH, but I don't see how it does anything that different than plenty of other RTSes in terms of using builder units. I guess I'm not sure what you mean by "typical builder unit".

Can't comment. I played the Tau missions from the DC demo. I shuddered when I saw the builder unit. I can't remember the last game I played with a builder-only unit. Good to know that's not the case with all the races.

I guess what I mean by builder unit is a unit that doesn't participate much into heavy combat and doesn't spend most of it's time building base improvements (for the record, I considering CoH's field defences to be about consolidating ground, not standard base building). I love the fact that I can bring my engie/pioneer to a firefight, gain some ground and consolidate and look at it the same way I do any other combat unit. There's a case to be made with the various builder units you describe for DoW, I agree, but I enjoy knowing my engies are never obsolete or an afterthought in CoH.

It also helps that there's so few base structures to make. Because I don't need to worry about making building after building, I feel much more at ease bringing some engies to the fight.

Just so you know, I did enjoy the DC demo, but I didn't quite sell me. There wasn't really that "wow" feeling I had when I played CoH. There's more than enough differences in the core gameplay to easily distinguish CoH from DoW, but you can see some influence in there. There's some things I really did enjoy from the DC demo though (adding "sargeants" to your squad was a very nice touch).

Personally I've always been kind of fond of C&C's extremely simple building system, but it definitely could use some evolution to bring about a similar level of tactics.

Same here. I find the base building aspect of any RTS the most mundane. Ground Control II's system was also pretty good, but I can't imagine anyone else running with it, unless Massive decides to implement a similar system in their new RTS.

[Stay Puft]

IGN has screenshots:
http://media.pc.ign.com/media/850/850126/imgs_1.html

And the trailer is up on youtube:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aUXoekeDIW8

[drawkcaBLovesScarlett]

It's always hard to determine anything from screenies of a game that is from what I understand is far from being complete, but units of the same type seem to be clustered together tightly. There's also a screen with a zerg rush attacking terrans on the high ground, but there's way too many for it to be manageable.

Could be because they wanted nice screenshots, could be because the A.I. of this build is pretty dense and clusters units, but here's hoping it's because the units are arranged in squads. After Ground Control, R:TW, Rise of Nations, and CoH (and DoW, Hi DSS!) I can't go back to selecting individual units. It just feels way too archaic.

[Foxwood]

Originally Posted by drawkcaB

It's always hard to determine anything from screenies of a game that is from what I understand is far from being complete, but units of the same type seem to be clustered together tightly. There's also a screen with a zerg rush attacking terrans on the high ground, but there's way too many for it to be manageable.

Could be because they wanted nice screenshots, could be because the A.I. of this build is pretty dense and clusters units, but here's hoping it's because the units are arranged in squads. After Ground Control, R:TW, Rise of Nations, and CoH (and DoW, Hi DSS!) I can't go back to selecting individual units. It just feels way too archaic.

hopefuly we will see units in squads, but that zergling rush looks very much like its the AI in a scripted rush kind of thing, not really what the player would be controling unless their entire army was zerglings.

[Hiro Protagonist]

Design-wise, Blizzard is stuck between a rock and a hard place. They've got the original game, which is generally considered to be one of the finest RTS games of all time, and which has a near-fanatical following in Korea, but they also have a great deal of new and innovative competition. How much can they really change their core formula without upsetting or irritating the people who brought such success to the first game? They can't overhaul it into something like CoH, because that might be so different from the original game that the hardcore players might just ignore it and continue playing the original.

I think they were right to further finesse their original gameplay model. It holds strong today, especially in multiplayer.

[The Crimson Booger]

"Hell, it's about time."

It's early, but this still made me LOL.

[Chairman Yang]

Originally Posted by DeadScreenSky

I'm not sure it's so much a developer groupthink issue, but one more of catering to the playerbase. I'm positive one of the reasons CoH is more micromanagement-based is because fans bitched about Dawn of War being too simple to play. There's clearly space for a RTS that is a little more leisurely paced, but the problem is that the hardcore probably won't accept it.

You're probably right--hardcore players of a particular game or type of game are generally resistant to radical change. But I think there's a huge untapped audience of people who would want a turn-based WH40K game (hell, the people who play the actual tabletop game have proven they like turn-based and would be a nearly automatic playerbase right there).

Originally Posted by DeadScreenSky

And honestly I feel real-time is probably the way to go with W40K videogames. I love turn-based games, but they don't really have that visceral "oh ****" quality that the setting needs.

Eh, I think complex tactical situations in turn-based games can bring an excitement of their own. But also remember that turn-based doesn't have to mean traditional turn-based; the game Combat Mission has shown a different model. Rather than giving orders to a unit then watching that unit act, a WH40K game could use a "phase-based" combat system. The player would give orders to all of his units, then a slice of cinematic combat would occur in real-time based on those orders. Watching and hoping the battle will go in your favour would provide some great tension and excitement, without the frantic micro that makes a lot of people dislike RTSes.

[Heist]

Originally Posted by Digital Geist

Did you hear that?


It's the sound of millions of gamers orgasming at the same time.

Fixed.

[alfindeol]

I have to say I am excited. I have been waiting ten years for them to finish this story. I will not buy this game if I don't get to beat down Kerrigan with Raynor though.